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Submitted by Bert on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 1:38pm.
Nov 14 2008 - 10:00am Nov 14 2008 - 3:00pm
What: Student Walkout
10:00 AM: Meet at SPSCC campus, between buildings 22 and 26.
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Iraq and Afghanistan
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 2:15pm.Iraq and Afghanistan
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 2:51pm.It is a very solid argument that both of the wars, in Afghanistan and Iraq, are resource wars. In fact, after the invasion of Afghanistan, the US installed Hamid Karzai as President. For conspiracy theorists, there has been speculation that Karzai formerly worked for the oil company conglomerate, Unocal.
Additionally, there is a very solid argument that the motivation for a large scale invasion / occupation / military action in Afghanistan is not due to the presence of Taliban or Al Qaeda, but to the presence of a major oil pipeline and other resource issues (perhaps even including opium...
After all, the Taliban (and bin Laden for that matter) was a former ally of the USA in the Soviet/Afghan wars.
So, putting the two wars in the same pod is hardly dishonest. They are both really about resources - they are not legitimately about protection from terrorism.
I doubt...
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 11/15/2008 - 9:33am.We would have invaded Afghanistan had it not been for September 11th. Maybe we would have conducted limited operations, that's certainly possible. Nobody will really know for sure, but the extent to which we're there today - and almost begging other Western nations to contribute - I think is directly tied to the New York and Washington, D.C. attacks.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 3:33pm.Lately its been bugging me....
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 4:10pm....that we call these invasions and occupations "war" when congress has not declared them as such.
I know, I know...that's what they "are" but constitutionally speaking, doesn't congress need to declare it to make it a war, legally speaking?
The "War Powers Act"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 4:24pm.Oh yeah....
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 4:32pm....forgot about the damn "War Powers Act".
<I shake my fist towards DC>
War Powers Act
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 4:42pm.Is the "War Powers Act," in and of itself, congruent with the spirit and intent of the constitution? Has it been used in defiance of the spirit of the constitution (thereby in a manner that is "unconstitutional?")
And have it's current uses even been justified by the facts on the ground - i.e. an imminent threat of attack?
The USA has not faced an imminent threat of attack that would justify the use of this "War Powers Act." It was wrongly used to justify both wars.
Neither nation of Iraq nor Afghanistan posed imminent threats to the security of the USA. In fact, the invasions, in both cases, have only served to destabilize and weaken the internal order that existed previously. Now, these nations are regularly subject to random and extreme acts of violence. Our government is to blame.
Stop the wars.
That's really a missreading of it on my part
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:05pm.What resources in Afghanistan?
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:17pm.Opium poppies? Kite runners? Bert, the Resources dog don't hunt. There is nothing to speak of in the way of natural resources in Afghanistan other than poppy fields and a few hydroelectric dams. There are no oil deposits in Afghanistan. Afghanistan's only claim to fame was as a region that had to be crossed without being hijacked or killed. In a thousand years not much has changed.
The speculation that Karzi worked for Unocal is rightly the territory of the Tinfoil Hat crowd. I recommend Ghost Wars as a good introductory history to the Soviet, American and Pakistani involvement in Afghanistan. It will explain Karzi's background with the Northern Alliance and when, how and why he broke with them. Compared to the alternatives, tribal war lords or a the medieval theocracy of the Taliban, Karzi is looking pretty damn good.
Asserting the US invaded to secure an oil pipeline don't fly either. Oil companies are interested in nation state stability and are not too particular which form of totalitarianism delivers a compliant citizenry. Would you please explain how the chaos of the current tribal warfare is preferable to oil companies than the dictatorship of the Taliban?
Sorry Bert, Iraq and Afghanistan are sperate wars fought by different forces for different reasons.
The Prize, and Access to It - Oil
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:53pm.It's about oil. A major function of the large scale military incursion has been to secure a major oil pipeline that runs through Afghanistan. The pipeline is an important bypass of Russia.
Do you have to be so offensive with your tinfoil hat critique? Is that how you operate in the total of your life? Or is that just your computer personality?
Laurian, there is nothing obscene or untoward about the hypothesis that world affairs are dictated and controlled, at least at some level, by insiders.
I wonder what it is that causes your immediate distrust of anything that is labeled conspiracy. Conspiracy has been black-listed. But just because some people theorize about potential conspiracies doesn't mean that the theory must automatically be nonsense. This should be especially true in regard to global petroleum politics.
If you know anything about the history of oil, you would know that oil resources around the world have been the subject of extreme efforts by extreme individuals to dominate. Speculating about the influence of an oil pipeline in the causative aspects of a war is not ridiculous in any way shape or form. Quite to the contrary - it is common sense.
Further, in regards to opium, it's clear that some aspects of the American Government have something to hide in regard to the drug war. With all of the money that is spent on intelligence and border security, how does so many drugs, cocaine (and other drugs), get into the US? Maybe, just maybe, there is some level, or some type, of collusion between the cartels and people capable of bringing in illicit cargoes. I am not an expert, and I won't claim to be. There are people who know the details. My understanding of this is based in good old plain and simple common sense.
Bert
Taliban
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 6:00pm.Although the Taliban and Americans worked hand in hand to oppose the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, the Taliban is no longer a friend to those same American interests. Things change. Taliban, once an "ally," now an opponent - to those who advocate a militaristic interventionist foreign policy of global resource domination.
Iraq and Afghanistan are different wars and yet they are also the same war. Both are fought in the vision of an America that is the dominant global political and economic force.
Karzai is preferable to those American interests for a number of reasons. One of which is that he is friendly to those American interests - unlike the Taliban, which by the way, is much more liberal than America's current "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan. Remember, it's the current regime in Afghanistan that is enforcing the Burkha and the exclusion of women from schools - not the Taliban.
When is comes to Afghanistan
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 7:15pm.Bert needs books
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 2:47pm.Bert, please take our advice and read the damn book (Ghost Wars)...
...I'm not an expert or anything, but I believe you have lots of "facts" incorrect.
Thanks L., you are on the right track =)
B., so sorry about your ride >big hugz< I got my eyes sharp for your bike...
...L, how is the Apple project going?
Your speculations runs in the face of
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 6:59pm.facts, history and logic .
1st the pipeline to which you refer is not an oil line, it is a natural gas line which has yet to be built. The Taliban were looking for someone to build the line when bin Laden put the kibosh on that.
2. Do you deny oil companies prefer a strong central government and docile citizenry? Well, that's exactly what the Taliban was offering Unocal, or any other multi-national with the resources to build the project.
3. People and organizations acting in their own interests is not a conspiracy it's a fact of life. Your hypothesis about world affairs is neither obscene or untoward, just painfully obvious.
4. And finally, your musing over the export of opium is exactly the kind of blue sky speculation that drives me nuts. Weaselly constructions like "Maybe, just maybe", "I'm no expert" "some aspects" maybe common sense in your book. I call it evidence free speculation which conviently does not challenge anything you already believe.
Iraq is about oil and the Idiot Son proving himself to his father.
Afghanistan was an angry and well placed strike at the organization that dropped the World Trade center buildings.
Oh, wait the WTC towers were dropped by Cheney/Bush. Or the Jews. Or extra-terrestrials. I forget which one.
Damn, Laurian
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 10:20am.But someone was wrong on the Internets!!!!
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 10:32am.Lame?
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 12:15pm.I don't have cable
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 2:30pm.which means my TV is limited to ch 13. Yea Simpsons!
O'Reilly on anything other a pointed stick lame.