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Submitted by Rick on Wed, 09/05/2007 - 9:25pm.
The past few days have been very interesting on the blog, and while we've seen the beauty of what a public, citizen-driven medium can do (e.g., host an apparently much needed discussion of OFS affairs and operations), we've also seen the underside of blogging behavior. Sometimes bloggin' ain't pretty, and that was certainly on display over the past week. Partly, this is due to the fact that blogging is an odd thing for human's to do. We're built to have certain kinds of relationships, mostly the tangible kind, not the virtual kind. Most people need a lot of help to find their humanity in blogland, and some just don't really ever get there. It has been my dream to write up a detailed guide about how to communicate effectively on the blog (mostly so I can use it to remind myself). I'm going to ask for help from the community to do this -- probably in the form of a wiki -- so that we have a code by which we can live here. We've gotten along OK with the ambiguous, loosely-defined set of principles that we have now, but it is time to have something more explicit to point to, especially when newcomers challenge our process. It seems that there are two specific casualties of this week, Merwyn and Larry. This is unfortunate because they both were able to participate in positive ways, and I think they both have a sense of how an online community can be a wonderful thing. Perhaps, if we had a more explicit process, they would have found a way to stay in the community. They are both welcome back, as long as they can share and share alike. I say "share and share alike" because participation in this community is sharing. It is not just a bunch of free agents bumping into each other. We're building something new here, a new kind of community, and just like any kind of community, there are some constraits. We don't hurt each other (intentionally), and if someone does behave hurtfully, they take responsibility for it (thanks for that Norm). We try to listen first, then add our $.02. We try to stay focused on the ideas, and not on the individuals. We try to speak about those things that we really care about, and not make arguments just for the sake of arguing. Finally, we try to learn from each other. I hope that we can make these principles more concrete in the coming weeks.
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This will come as no
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Wed, 09/05/2007 - 9:49pm.This will come as no surprise to anyone, but my rule of blog is to not get wrapped around the axle. I don't think I'll ever change anyone's mind, but if I have something to add, I'll add it.
The last few days when I was reading some of the more active threads I was wondering why folks couldn't walk away.
Anyway, good talk Rick.
Well Rick
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 5:40am.Good job, you drug me out of hiding. I can only hope you can live up to your own words.
I'm going to be direct, as it's all I know to be.
You contested two of my posts with the "if you don't know how can you comment on it?" question. I have an answer, that I held back, in light of accusations I've seen thrown around, but I've decided that I'm OK with myself and therefore the question is:
Do I have to own an elephant to know that one is big?
You see, Rick, I read the entire blog on Norm's comment and without a whole lot of brain power, understood the content and context of his statement, even without someone sending it to me in private message. Thus I was not totally ignorant to the concerns, but tried to bring to the table an idea that comments made about Norm in open forum were just as hurtful. To this day, I believe that issue was swept under the rug in option for "political correctness" (a term I don't use lightly), as I observed men being called sweeping names and insults and no deletion of suggestion of such was required
My comments on Bartone were similar. I was attempting to point out that one person's salt is another's sugar. Although I'm not a part of OFS, it doesn't mean that I haven't seen groups try to railroad someone for subjective reasons. Of course, my post was capped with a post from someone I didn't even know, that seemed to support my point, and WAS a principle in the matter. Maybe I wasn't as ignorant as someone attempted to indicate.
As was pointed out, Rick, this is YOUR BLOG. Now, either I can be a member as I understood membership to be, or your can have your blog back and call me angry, ignorant or whatever suits best. You can leave this post up and comment or you can delete it. The choice is yours. But if you're going to address me, be ready for response. I'm a grown man and not a child in someone's class on blogging.
In my world, "community" means equality. I seek nothing more, nor will I accept less. I've done nothing rude and in fact feel I have been treated rudely.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Honestly Larry...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 6:25am....it's pretty clear that the way that you engage on the blog is mostly about creating conflict. Under the guise of equality, you elicit harsh responses from people, then judge them for it. I've seen you do it several times in your short time on the blog. You're not the first person on the blog to have that style of interaction, and you won't be the last.
So here's what you can do to have an enjoyable experience, and allow others to also: let it go. This is not the place to be macho. Turn it off and walk away. By doing so, you gain MORE credibility with the community, not less. Say what you have to say, and stop treating every response like a personal challenge. It really IS about community and ideas, not about ego.
Finally, this isn't my blog any more. I belongs to Olympia. And just like you wouldn't stand in the middle of Sylvester Park engaged in a shouting match with a stranger, I'll expect that you don't do it here on the blog. It's a public space. In fact, it's a sacred space.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Actaully
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 6:28am.Actually Rick
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 6:45am.You are again guilty to trying to read my mind and doing a damned poor job of it.
You are attempting to know my motives for posting. That IS a personal challenge, Rick
So, to not make the same mistake twice, let me say that my motive for posting on this particular blog is to let you and anyone else that is concerned know that (1) I don't appreciate others speculating on my motives (baiting, etc) (2) as long as I'm allowed to be a member (not entirely my choice) I'll defend my right to explain my motives without others doing such for me and (3) if that seems "macho", I'd suggest that everyone then has a little "macho" in them.
Again, if you are going to engage me in such a discussion style, please understand that I will respond accordingly. I believe the saying is "We try to stay focused on the ideas, and not on the individuals". It appears your post to me was rather "individual".
Just for the record and I have no motive other than an honest opinion on the subject, I found Merwyn's "anti-posts" (deletions) to be quite humorous, admitting that I enjoy sarcasm and satire. By no means did I find them "rude" or the other adjective used (I can't recall, but I did read it). Just one man's voice.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Abuse the system...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 7:24am....and you become the topic of conversation. You've professed to "have no horse in this race" or no agenda on the various topics that you've posted on, and that's really at the core of the issue. The less you care about the actual outcome, the more it becomes a personal challenge (I'm not reading your mind here -- it's what you keep saying). But the other contributors on this blog are actually ARE invested in the outcomes, and DO have a horse in the race. Why should you get to dominate a conversation that you don't care about?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Holy smokes
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 7:29am.It's a little different...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 7:43am....from being impartial (i.e., not biased toward one position or the other). What I'm describing is not having ANY investment in the issue at all. Thus arguing becomes an end in itself.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I Disagree...
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:22am.I think AL's opinion(s) is not only valuable, but viable. In reading his posts my take on it is he was not negating the OFS experience by relating his with his teacher or as a coach, he was just pointing out that sometimes good comes out of evil and it's all in how you look at a situation and what you choose to take out of it.
On the other hand, it's as if Rick has a personal agenda against AL and is taking it out on him publically instead of letting it go. Rick is also sending a loud, clear message that if you don't have any particular involvement in an issue, you have no right to voice an opinion about it. I totally disagree. Who is Rick to tell us what we can & can't voice an opinion about and why does Rick feel the need to control opinions & issues??? If anything, this is reflecting very negatively for Rick in the eyes & minds of many obviously.
JstPlnOnry
"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown
It's not black or white...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:37am....as you suggest. I didn't suggest that Larry's original contributions aren't valuable -- quite the opposite. But when he takes every negative response as a personal challenge, resulting in what is really a minor point coming to dominate the conversation, then his contribution becomes malicious. It seems to be characteristic of folks who've spent too much time on the Olympian comment threads -- conflict is the whole point, not the actual ideas or issues.
On the issue of "involvement in an issue," I simply made the point that not caring also leads to a focus on the conflict. Did you get that part? If you read closely, you'll notice I didn't actually tell you what you can or can't do. I made a plea for people to engage when they are engaged, and not to jump in when they're not really invested in the issue.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Rick
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:54am.Aren't you doing the same thing right now? Taking every negative response as a personal challenge, resulting in what is really a minor point coming to dominate the conversation, then your contribution becomes malicious.
Just curious because that's how I'm seeing & taking it...
JstPlnOnry
"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown
Did you ever wonder...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:55am....why OlyBlog is different from the Olympian?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I Can't Say
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 9:02am.I have because up until the last few days I knew why it was different (and way better!) but lately, it's not about different so much as it is equal to... This saddens me greatly.
JstPlnOnry
"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown
There is that word again...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:25am.Abuse.
Let me attempt to be more clear as somehow or another my message just isn't gettting out there.
When I say "I don't have a horse in this race" I'm claiming that I have nothing to gain in the outcome, i.e. I have nothing to gain with the firing or not firing of Jeff Bartone. That being said, I do have a "horse in the race" when I see TWO sides to the story (as my blog points out, with supporting data) and see people trying to publically castigate my fellow man (woman/person).
Thus I am not arguing for the sake of argument, but am attempting to, in reality defuse the matter by pointing out that we can celebrate our differences along with understanding our similarities.
Let's call me the innocent bystander. I'm observing a person getting tried and convicted one one side and yet supported on the other side. Shall I be quiet and not try to be the point in the middle?
I'm somewhat amused (in a curious manner) that this man is being acused of 20 years of abusive behavior and yet, only now is action being taken. I might suggest that many of the people that are in this fray, may not have been involved for 20 years, or 10 for that matter. They might be new to the society and just not willing to accept the statis quo of the past (which most often, the reverse is the case). There are many variables that play into this and I've tried, as a citizen and constituent, to attempt to bring to light "the other side".
For this, I am guilty as charged.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
I'm not questioning...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:49am....the validity of your point. I think it's an interesting contribution. Do you hear that? My personal view is that the timing may not have been optimal (it was pretty early in the process for angry people to process what you offered), but I really have no problem with original post.
It's what happened after people (predictably) responded negatively to your comment. As Emmett notes: don't get wrapped around the axle when someone pushes back. If you do, it then ceases to be a conversation about the issue, and becomes a battle of wills. You clearly have some awareness of this, as you mentioned several times that "you should expect a response when someone disrespects you" (paraphrasing). What I'm saying is that it's not ok to do that on the blog. Just because someone else says something boneheaded, doesn't mean that it's your responsibility to rectify it. This is not about defending your honor. If you walk away, you protect the community -- because that kind of conflict is caustic, and does no one any good.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Rick - I Ask Again...
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:56am."Just because someone else says something boneheaded, doesn't mean that it's your responsibility to rectify it."
You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot & eating your own words at the same time!
See my point?
JstPlnOnry
"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown
Maybe he can ask Rob R
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:59am.ROFL!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 9:00am."Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown- Login or register to post comments
»
Right...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 9:03am....then we could watch the blog become a boxing ring for a bunch of angry people who never listen to each other.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I'll only comment on the
Submitted by sophielou on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 10:57am.Ok...bad timing and don't respond when insulted.
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:53am.I got it.
::::walking away:::::
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
We wouldn't be talking about this
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:56am.AMEN BROTHER!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 8:57am.Couldn't of said it better myself!!! Although I tried in a round about way! hehehehe!
JstPlnOnry
"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown
General comment
Submitted by curveball on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 5:20pm.Re: AL & Merwyn.
I've read olyblog once in a while but just joined over the OFS crap. I'll say this, AL and Merwyn provided what I thought were good comments, and they are not the only guilty ones who are seemingly unable to 'walk away'. My experience reading this blog has been that their viewpoints are often attacked fairly mercilessly by other posters with their own agendas and axes to grind, but these other posters aren't called out on their behavior. It seems...unbalanced with regard to moderation.
Re: Jeffrey Bartone.
Yes, he participated in a mediation with a fellow staff member many many years ago. It takes two to tango; there was another staff member involved who was also at fault for the situation (is that not the point of mediation, to come to agreement on actions EACH party can take to prevent reoccurence of issues?). He agreed to participate in mediation.
Additionally, it was supposed to be a private personnel matter but was outed by at least one former board member (annie, on this blog). Were Jeffrey a vindictive individual, he may have a slander lawsuit against OFS as well as 'annie', as there are very strict rules regarding release of personnel actions information to the public, especially regarding release of information that could result in negative consequences with regard to his ability to gain future employment. Part of me wishes Jeffrey would pursue such a lawsuit, for it may be the only way to get OFS to clean up its' act.
Jeffrey is not the only OFS staff member or board member or even volunteer to have gone through mediation. Nor is he the only OFS board or staff member (or volunteer) to be repeatedly accused of rude or abrasive behavior? Several board, staff, volunteers have over the years been documented as not performing their jobs adequately as well. I don't think this particular complaint has EVER been leveled at Jeffrey.
Should they all be 'outed', should they all be fired, dragged through the public scrutiny...or maybe there should be some kind of transparent process put in place to assure fair treatment of these individuals regardless of who they are or whether whoever happens to be in power at the moment has a personal conflict? Whatdya think?
Suggestions re moderation?
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 6:08pm.When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I have a couple suggestions...
Submitted by blagoblag on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 9:57pm.I feel like I've tried to bring some of these up before, and there has been zero response.
Maybe my points are not as universally easy to get behind as "ask yourself: will this be perceived as offensive or hurtful?" or "would I say this to a loved one?" (Both very good suggestions, in my opinion.)
Or maybe considering my suggestions would involve a kind of soul-searching that is too uncomfortable because we have less practice at it. (That's my guess, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.)
These suggestions are important to me, so I'm going to keep bringing them up: Nothing shuts down conversation for me faster than condescension and rank-pulling. Power plays, pure and simple. It makes me feel like I'm in a coliseum full of alpha males, and I have no interest in trying to find a place for myself there.
So here are my suggestions. When responding in a heated discussion (or at least when you are feeling your blood rise) ask yourself:
"Am I responding to the merits of the previous post, or do I have an ax to grind with that poster... in other words, would I respond the same if my grandmother were making that point?"
"Am I trying to pull rank or otherwise use my perceived status or power to dismiss another's perspective?"
"Might this post be perceived as condescending or baiting?"
"If (maybe) so, can I add clarifying language to make my opinion sound less inflammatory, and more open to conversation?"
"Am I feeling that opinions that conflict with mine are intolerable?" (If so, walk away.)
We've seen a lot of discussion around hurtful and offensive comments. What we haven't had is much discussion of other forms of power struggles, attempts at control, that play out in conversation. My list is really just a starting point. I think there's much more work to do to look at the issue.
Update: I might as well be explicit here... I definitely have you in mind, Rick, on some of these points, based on my observation of many of your comments. (Yes, I went there.) I'm not in cahoots with any of your favorites; in fact I even side with your opinion on several of the comments you've disagreed with. It's the method I take issue with.
I sincerely hope you are able to receive this as heartfelt constructive criticism and not as a personal challenge to be battled.
Having gone there, I'd still like to say that these guidelines would be great for everyone to consider, and I don't exempt myself.
Suggestions, agreement on tone
Submitted by curveball on Fri, 09/07/2007 - 2:00am.blagoblag: I concur on your thoughts about condescension and rank-pulling being particularly offensive, and that I sense some of that going on here. I'm relatively new, so I don't know whether it's widely prevalent or intended, or whether it's just an accidental byproduct that some engage in. It IS here and perhaps noticeable to me precisely BECAUSE I'm a newcomer (one gets used to people after spending a time with them, and overlooks things like 'tone' often).
I've witnessed it happen in other blogs that I used to frequent, where the main authors make a point, and the majority of blog posters pile on to agree, leaving the dissenting voice essentially unheard or abused. Admittedly I am over-sensitized to it. Group-think, as it were and/or gratitude and attribution of that gratitude to the site authors for the sites' existence in the first place (a display of respect?). I know this is not the intent of this blog, but I think it may be a natural and perhaps to some degree inevitable evolution as blog participants are self-selected.
Of course, it also happens in personal face-to-face interactions within groups, and it's not limited to alpha males either.
I don't know any of the docents of this site personally (or, I don't think I do). I doubt it's as easy as it used to be back when I was an election supervisor, and you had to have 1 Democrat and 1 Republican ride in the car with the ballots to the courthouse, to make sure nothing fishy was about to take place. Meaning, as this blog topics are all over the map, it would be difficult to so clearly identify equal numbers of docents to take the side of each instance of potential conflict.
I agree on your distinction as well on discussion of opinion vs method, and think people in general have a long way to go to figure out better methods of action and that sometimes, their methods undermine their very ability to make their point or take action. Witness TJ Johnson, who works extremely hard and strives towards many (but not anywhere near all) of the goals I would concur with, but whose methods (including condescension as well) have undermined his ability to remain a viable progressive council member.
It's a human process that we can all constantly improve on, if we are indeed genuinely open to criticism/suggestion. Rick is to be lauded for opening the discussion. To that end, when faced with what one may perceive as criticism, there may be additional questions to be asked - was this intended as criticism? can i respond offline in a way such that I can determine intent without trying to make that determination in a public forum? once i determine intent, if i still feel the need to address it publicly, i will be better able to do so because of the knowledge gained in the offline query. etc.
Thanks...
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 09/07/2007 - 7:57am....for such thoughtful replies. I hope we can collect all this knowledge into a form that is easy for people to access and refer to. I'll be setting something up when I return next week.
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
At the risk of.....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 09/06/2007 - 6:16pm.Oh, my!
Thanks for that information, curveball. You woke me up with your point about the release of personal information. I hadn't even considered that part.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers