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Submitted by Bert on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 12:23pm.
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Looks more like...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:06pm....a sidewalk to me.
I wonder what winning looks like to them?????
What winning looks like...
Submitted by Bert on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:25pm.The image of victory, however, might be more extreme - it might include a world in which there is no opposition to America's policy of global dominance.
Good question. Maybe you can show up next week - they have been there on the corner of 4th ave and Water st on Fridays from about 4pm until 6pm for the past year or so.
(By the way, this is a counter-protest designed to express an opposing viewpoint to the Peace Vigil (which allegedly does not support our troops) that has been occurring on the other side of the street - on Percival Landing - for over 10 years.)
I wave to them everytime I drive by
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:16pm....I wave to Bert too.
As far as I can tell they are voicing their opinion about the war just like Bert and his friends.
Errrrr.
Submitted by systematist on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 6:52pm.Isn't that special!
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:14pm.The two..
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:23pm.On the left look like they're about military-age. They should sign-up.
With that said, I still don't understand why people stand outside with a sign or two. When I was at Fort Huachuca, every once in a while a half dozen people would stand outside the front gate with signs expressing their displeasure with torture and other intelligence gathering techniques and methods.
Honestly, it looked goofy more than anything.
haha
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:41am.Stretching the Facts to fit Contorted Reality
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 9:55am.For example, protesting a policy of global dominance. Is that stretching the facts to fit a contorted reality.
I am just unclear. Thanks.
The example you offered
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 12:28pm.Policy of Global Dominance
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 12:35pm.Check out this blog: Understanding Each Other
In particular, I would point you toward the Harper's Magazine article by David Armstrong entitled, "Dick Cheney's Song of America"
I think you'll find, upon a thorough and comprehensive analysis of the relevant political themes and discourse - that I am telling you nothing but the truth. It's not rhetoric. It's reality. There are people in high places who expressly seek global domination.
Understanding eachother
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 6:49pm.I'm confused
Submitted by Bert on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 7:21pm.I advise that you be very careful about your sources of information. Make sure people are telling you the truth. Don't make judgments based on words alone. You must look to actions.
Project for a New American Century
Swindled?
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 7:45pm.boredom
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 7:30am.Bert, are you arguing a version of False Consciousness here?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 7:56pm.Sources
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 9:44pm."President Bush issued a new national security strategy today reaffirming his doctrine of preemptive war against terrorists and hostile states with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, despite the troubled U.S. experience in Iraq.
The long-overdue document, an articulation of U.S. strategic priorities that is required by law, lays out a robust view of America's power and an assertive view of its responsibility to bring change around the world. On topics including genocide, human trafficking and AIDS, the strategy describes itself as "idealistic about goals and realistic about means."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss/2006/nss2006.pdf
Among some choice quotes from the introduction:
"Free governments do not oppress their people or attack other free nations." "America must continue to lead."
From the document itself:
"It is the policy of the United States to seek and support democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world. In the world today, the fundamental character of regimes matters as much as the distribution of power among them. The goal of our statecraft is to help create a world of democratic, well-governed states that can meet the needs of their citizens and conduct themselves responsibly in the international system."
It's my (and I would imagine Bert agrees in general) interpretation that this is an avowed interventionist strategy and as such is essentially evil. That is to say that I oppose it for its own sake, distrust and reject the ideals claimed as motivating it, and I don't think that it is actually a good thing to do even if it is motivated by the ideals claimed. I believe that if people in Cuba elect Fidel Castro, that it is illegal under US law and international law for the DOD or its assigns to seek to kill Fidel Castro or subvert the lawful government of Cuba. Your opinion might certainly differ. But the fact is, that is exactly what the US military attempted time and time again (as came out in the Church Committee hearings in the mid 1970's). We could repeat that example in a hundred nations over the last 120+ years of United States History. We could go a little farther back in time and talk about Olympia and the Nisqually people, and that conquest, too. History. Not rhetoric. There is a difference.
Ending Tyranny
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 7:25am.This is not - I repeat: not - rhetoric. It is well understood that President Bush and associated interests pursue a policy of global dominance.
why you stay in this country you describe?
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:44pm.Why would I want to move from a place where I have at least legal rights on paper, to one in which I have not even that paper protection? I'd rather save what we can of the Republic, and I'm heartened by the fact that most of the pro-imperials are so situated intellectually that they cannot even mention the name of Empire without being struck by cognitive dissonance. They can't support "empire" so they have to label that critique "rhetoric."
You might call that rhetoric, I call it history. The difference would be the reading we've each done, I would wager.
Drew, why you stay in this country you describe?
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 6:51pm.I don't mean that as a slap but as a genuine question. If this country is as evil as you have repeatedly described why do you remain here? Surely Cuba or Venezuela although far from perfect have governments more in line with your hopes and dreams.
So here it is. What do you like about America?
I've opened up a new thread here so as not to hijack this one.
Not the country which is evil - the government. NOT the same.
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:25pm.The prime reason you don't hear my critique of Venezuela is that I don't live there. I don't assume as you do that it is better just because it has politically conscious self interested anti-imperialists in its government. For one thing I speak English and not Spanish so much...
Thank you
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 2:07am.Thank you for your strong opinions, I respect you for sharing thoughts.
I didn't want to offend anybody personally, I get frustrated with humans in general and the wacky political views some have.
I asked for documentation that proves the United States is seeking global dominance on this thread when the fact is that there isn't one. Also Global Dominance isn't something we've sought or are seeking, its something we've achieved! I can't believe that being second best is anybodies goal, I just can't believe that.
My glass isn't half full nor is it half empty, someone gave me too big of a glass,...who's responsible for this?
Wrong frame
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 5:54am.This isn't a race with a winner and losers. It's more like a ship on heavy seas. In a ship, someone must trim the sails, man the con, pump the bilge, look out for land, etc... If any one of these jobs isn't performed, then the ship sinks and EVERYONE DROWNS. Such is our fate if countries don't start working together instead of trying to dominate one another.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
rhetorical trope, are you guys taking turns?
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 7:42am.Sounds like you have an issue
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 7:46am.Peace.
Backatchya
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 8:01am.The issue isn't me
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 1:20pm.If your question is...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 2:45pm....where's the documentation, the answer was provided: The Project for a New American Century. To quote: "At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible."
Or did you have a different question?
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Global Dominance
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Fri, 08/29/2008 - 6:16am.Exactly who do you think...
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 08/29/2008 - 6:19am....has been running this country for the last 8 years?
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Republicans, remember?
Submitted by sasqwatcher on Fri, 08/29/2008 - 11:09pm.Really?
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 5:53am.I think you might benefit from looking at some of the recent analysis of how the Republicans have bilked the US for BILLIONS of your hard-earned dollars over the last eight years. It seems to be the only thing that the Iraq war was actually good for.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Stay on the topic
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 9:25am.See response...
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 9:26am....below.
and
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 9:34am.Winning
Submitted by Bert on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 1:51pm.And those who forget the past....
Submitted by Laurian on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 10:23am.The Democratic party by it's very nature and ideology is constantly evolving and moving forward. As of late that evolution has been retarded because we have had to fight so hard against the retrograde and destructive policies of the neo-con wing of the Republican party instead of moving to a more compassonate and just world.
Fighting rear guard actions by the discredited, and surely there is no group more discredited than those who lied their way into this war, takes a toll on the forces of peace and progress. A local example is the PMR movement. Olympians were forced to resist militarization of our Port, a battle that should have never been fought because this nation never should have invaded and occupied Iraq.
As a community we are still arguing over the the tactics and goals of PMR, a silly and distracting exercise when it is clear the prime mover of that discord, the Iraq war, was clearly wrong. All that heat and passion should have been expended toward ending homelessness, enacting a living wage ordinance, or building the social and economic infrastructure to support organic food production and consumption, just to mention a few issues that could have real impact on the quality of life in Olympia.
Although I agree with the anti-imperialist agenda I feel taking on local issues is more important and productive because in the end prepares the populous to take on those large issues. I hope that a Obama presidency will be an effective force against the nation forces of retrogression so that we Olympians can open up the discussion of what really hurts and helps us here at the terminal of Puget sound.
can't read?
Submitted by chad360 on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 8:23am.Scott, you are impossible to talk with...
...sounds like you are really, really in denial...do you love the war? do you love Bush? WTF Scott?
...folks have posted over and over the EXACT document that is the blue-print for the new world order, but you seem to not be able to comprend that...which is too bad, but I guess the average for an American.
Have fun in "ignorance is bliss land buddy"
Yes I do love bush
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 8:49am.I wonder if they even know
Submitted by srh31 on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 12:16pm.Relevant Questions
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 1:51pm.Ironic
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:20pm.apparent Japanese heritage
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:27pm.It would be even more ironic if he were American. Or not.
You don't really know his heritage unless you ask him. Maybe this Friday.
Hate to tell you...
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:29pm.Peter
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:34pm.There is some truth to what he says - but I am (perhaps obviously) of the opinion that his view is quite distorted.
He handed me a flyer pamphlet from Calvary Church that asked whether or not I had been "saved." Unfortunately I lost it. Maybe I can get another one next Friday.
I talked with Peter for a while, and I would have been interested in talking with him longer, but I had to be somewhere. Maybe I will put aside my own vigil for a while and talk to him sometime.
Anyway, I encourage anyone who is interested to talk with these people. They don't bite, and they seems to be pretty nice people, or at least they're tame when they are sign-holding in Downtown Olympia (I have seen Shelley Webber get pretty angry and lash out).
They're on the street from around 4pm until about 6pm. Don't be shy.
Of course, the weekly peace vigil (Sponsored by the Olympia FOR) is also on Fridays from 4:30pm until 6pm. There are almost always extra signs and good company, and good opportunity to interact with the larger community.
Hey white boy
Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:38pm.Hey yourself
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:31pm.I see five people standing on the corner for different reasons.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:49pm.Interesting body language going on...has anyone noticed that?
Look at their feet/stances.
OK...
Submitted by Rick on Sat, 08/30/2008 - 9:42am....Arts from the Hearts:
That's an interesting way to have a discussion. I'm sorry, but you don't get to choose what's relevant here. I find it very relevant that the same folks who put together the mission statement for the Project for a New American Century were the same people who've been running the country for the last eight years. You can ignore that, but you'll be missing a big piece of the puzzle. While the goal of the PNAC was clearly world domination, their incompetent execution of their plan has resulted in a huge loss of power and status for the US. Check out some of Kevin Phillips last few books. Interesting stuff.
Here's an interesting article titled: The Ideology of American Empire. Here's a snip:
Happy reading!
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Please,..no more magazine articles
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 9:45am.I don't think its possible for me NOT to choose whats relevant here sir.
The fact is that I choose to object to this strange behaviour of people on the far (right or left) and all the bullshit/rhetoric that comes with it.
I choose not to have my intelligence insulted by an idiot that tells me 'Have fun in "ignorance is bliss land buddy".'
I choose not to make insulting personal comments and it lowers the credit to all with your view.
The topic was this policy of Global Dominance that does not exist! Next your going to tell me that hockey mom is all for this bullshit.C'mon people!
Here Scott, HEAR
Submitted by Bert on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 2:44pm.Dear Bert and Rick
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 9:13am........ We seem to be getting personal here. Have you ever been to Disneyland? Well, your home now!
Where does it say that America is on a policy of GLOBAL DOMINANCE? Remember? That was what we were talking about my friend. Maybe your confusing the words Defense and Dominance. Scroll up :o) Checkmate!
I was honestly leaning towards casting my vote for Obama but you have perhaps turned me away from voting Democrat for quite some time.
HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? Well, certainly there are less intelligent people out there that would fall for this BS.
The platform you stand on has some wonderful ideals, yet your erratic way of garnishing support flouts societal norms, it kinda lets the air out of your tires, now that wouldn't make Barrack Obama very happy now would it?
Be true to yourself and re-think your core intent, being that of which is 'honest and genuine'. My 'issue' is with the extremists and how to control them, you are extremists and I honestly feel I need to refuse your opinions.
I will continue to call you out every time you get out of control. Good luck and better days ahead.
Scott Westerback
Olympia
Game on, Tenzing
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 9:32am.Arts from the Heart, you're not American.
And you've made the same error twice!
Please, don't vote at all. It's clear that you cannot distinguish between "your" and "you are." You really don't need to be casting a ballot to decide who the next President of the United States will be.
Stick with the middle school student body president.
your sour grapes
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 10:12am.I must have walked 'round
In a real fog
I was your best friend
Now I'm a real dog
I never thought that now
Would ever catch up with then
I've been a bad boy again.
I deeply appologize for mispelling 'you're', it will never hapen again!
Scott: stop baiting
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 10:25am.No one cares who you're going to vote for. But it would be nice if you contributed something substantive to the conversation, instead of shooting spitballs. You still haven't elaborated on what you think about any of this. We're all ears.
Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt
Nah, this is funnier
Submitted by Arts From The Heart on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 11:44am.My intellagance wuld be compremi, comprh.. comprimized :o)...if I entered a debate with...I don't know what you call them.
I'd rather just put them in their place.
What I am doing here is entertaining myself at the expense of a few wacky extremists, its quite fun and there is a mountain of material here. I choose to use my intelligence and humor or lack thereof for the benefit of myself and Joe Public.
Today you are Joe, listen to what I am saying Joe, I listened to you.