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OlyBlog Is Not The Olympian

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:00am.

There is your topic - discuss.

Seriously, yes it is obvious that those two entities are not twins, but some folks get confused and believe that all sites with comments enabled are the same.

Here is what I try to do when I join a new online community forum:

lots of reading first to get the sense of the vibes present, the energy, the style, the purpose
I pay special attention to the voices, including matters such as how much !!!!!!! is used and CAPS (which equals shouting) and how combative the voices are.
I watch how the moderation - if there truly is any - flows or does not flow.
I hope to see regular use of humor and agreements to disagree. Can we debate as community minded equals or do we have to choose our weapons for battle?

What do you all do when you find a new forum?

Addition 9/15 I'm off on vacation so am closing this thread down, feel free to start your own. Thanks all for lively conversation

Sarah's blog

I'll jump in...

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:18am.

I'm already in over my head.

As a writer in an interactive media, I use CAPS to emphasize a point, but it need not indicate "yelling" or any emotion other than "this is the important part of my sentence".

I try to not immediately think that someone is being combative because they disagree with me or the entire community. Combativeness usually is indicated, in my mind when someone starts calling names. Other than that, it's all just words on the screen and opinions.

Thanks

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

Response to Larry

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:22am.

Okay, but what if you learned that using lots and lots of caps on one particular site "sounded" like yelling to most everyone there? Would you tone it down for that reason?

I'm not at all equating disagreement with being combative. Not at all. Larry I really hope you can hear this from me.

One word in caps for

Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:31am.

One word in caps for emphasis is one thing, an entire paragraph is not only another but also hard to read. As for emphasis there are also italics and/or bold which serve the same purpose. It's all the same to me, more or less.

Starting with Prodigy's boards in '92 I learned that all caps equals yelling. Back then people would kindly explain it to newbies, who usually complied.

I've been trying to use

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:32am.

I've been trying to use italics more lately. It doesn't feel nearly as offensive, at least from my perspective.

Italics rock

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:43am.

Norm, I read them that way too, they don't feel jarring and can work quite well.

Italics and bold

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:40am.

I've been using bold lately for emphasis, seem to work. Sometimes I use italics when I want to make sure that readers know that I'm now writing in my own voice, rather than quoting.

A word or two in caps is fine I think. Sparingly used like a strong tasty spice.

Capslock and Programming

Submitted by paisleyboxers on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:37am.

A lowercase hello to me is.. "0x68, 0x65, 0x6c, 0x6c, 0x6f"

While an uppercase HELLO is ..."0x48, 0x45, 0x4c, 0x4c, 0x4f"

Those to arrays of characters in the same character system but not in the value placement.

I can't get the same information from the two different statements without doing some translation. That requires some over-head and processing.

Meaning that if you've delivered something to me in caps, i have to waste time trying to figure out what you mean and in which context.

Which also means I have to spend more time finding out how I got to the uppercase statement initially.

Leading to the final event, where I realize I didn't care enough in the first place.. and completely disregard the statements altogether.

Blogging community: WOW players, goths, bedwetters, and journalism dropouts.

I'm not a programmer but I play one on TV

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:47am.

Paisley I don't know anything about programming but what you've written here makes complete sense to me. In fact I just about grok it.

Functions

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:03pm.

And they also have neat little functions that will take a string of all CAPS or all lowers and change them for you - toupper(); and tolower();!

Yes and,

Submitted by paisleyboxers on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:47pm.

That's true on a per character basis - But, you still have to add the functions into loops and test for EOF, NULL terminators, etc.

You comment still helps emphasize that those throwing uppercase statements around require others to the extra work of interpretation.

Blogging community: WOW players, goths, bedwetters, and journalism dropouts.

Addition to the Mix

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:33am.

Rule 3: Know where you are in cyberspace

When I find a new forum

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:39am.

I lurk for a while to get a feel of the place and to decide if I want to participate and how. My only role in the Daily Olympian would be to counter the ugliness that visits the comments section every day. That is all. It is 90% conflict. My motivation for posting here is entirely different. We actually have conversations. It feels more like a community and less like a petty playground. People who come here simply to fight are in the wrong place.

Well said

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:42am.

We actually have conversations. It feels more like a community and less like a petty playground. People who come here simply to fight are in the wrong place.

Beautifully stated.

One quick response to Sarah

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:43am.

I don't want to hijack or become the focal point of this blog. I just posted my first response as one of the community.

I started interactive computer communications on AOL chats. Each chat differs on protocol and such. Some claim caps is yelling and others ignore that rule. I'm inclined to not make much out of it.

Finally, just to put this to rest, my impression of combativeness was just that...my impression. It has nothing to do with any other person's thoughts or posts. Each of us has our own sensitivity level and mine goes up and down from time to time. Sometimes, I'm more tolerant than others. Most of the time, I just try to understand that if the world thought exactly like me, I'd be dog gone bored.

In other words, if I want someone to agree with me all the time, I could just talk to myself (now THAT is humor).

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

Larry

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:53am.

When you are looking over a forum new to you, how do you evaluate it? How do you decide how to participate?

How are OlyBlog comments not Olympian comments?

Two great questions, Sarah

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:09pm.

Sorry, I overlooked answering those.

For the anti-answer, go to SondraK.com. They are going out of their way to be sexist, racist and every kind of "ist" that I can imagine. When I find my stomach turning after 30 seconds, I know I'm in the wrong place.

I have a different take on Olympian versus Olyblog. Although I think Gug has extremely good taste in name badges, I can't agree that 90% (hope I got that right) of The Olympian comments are negative. It has gone downhill since Emma was 'banned' and yet, I still enjoy many of the comments and humor. There are some very thoughtful people (PC, who has vanished, Swede - a new face) some comical people and some people that are there because they want to shock people and The Olympian seems to accomodate them with space (Banned Member, JeffB, et al). Olyblog attracts a different kind of audience because two sentence posts with intention of humiliation doesn't fit with this format. When I see a blog evolved into that, it's usually when we've gotten off track and personal (which WILL happen as we are all human).

One thing I said at the Broho get together was that even if we don't always agree, we are 100% in passion. I would find it hard to believe that anyone will get much out of Olyblog by posting for the sake of agitation. It's counter-productive to the flow. Thus we can disagree furiously, but I rarely see a personal attack, such as namecalling, which is the ultimate bottom feeding of conversation, in my opinion. Remember that this is coming from someone that did call someone on The Olympian an "arrogant ass". Yeppers, it was the bottom of the barrel for me. I was at that point where I no longer cared and was precisely what my nemisis wanted. Oh well, I've only made two mistakes in my entire life.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

How we olyblog

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:14pm.

Olyblog attracts a different kind of audience because two sentence posts with intention of humiliation doesn't fit with this format.

Can you write more on that? If we write something up for newcomers to in a sense show them the lay of the land, what do you suggest?

Hmmmm....

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:31pm.

Well, I'm generally told that I say more than I need so avoiding two sentence paragraphs is easy.

Let's see, starting out a post with "Jane, you ignorant slut" isn't going to open up much dialog. Granted many may see the humor from the old SNL bit, thus, unless you think the other party will understand, you might want to avoid such dialog. One of my pet peeves on The Olympian is "your an retard" for two reasons (1) the correct word is "you're" and (2) I have a nephew that is Downs Syndrome that knows better. There is no reason for that kind of crap.

How about this approach? Norm (just picking Norm because I know that he can take it), I respect your thoughts but I think you're way off base this time. I have effectively told Norm that I solidly disagree with him, yet I didn't need to use a humiliation term to get my point across.

HUMOR - as I have learned, one man's satire is another man's offensive statement, yet I will again quote John Winn Miller on satire - "This is an honored American tradition," the editor said. "Granted, good comedy like his often depends on exaggerations." Now mind you, this is in respect to a satire of Mohammed driving a truckload of explosives captioned "what would Mohammed drive?". I can practically guarantee that a fair amount of Olympian commenters would howl at the humor and yet, I think it would go over like passing gas in a theater in this venue. I think the rule of thumb for readers should be "how ridiculous is it to think that he meant that literally?"

Back to work.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

90%

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:45pm.

I agree, the comments in the Daily Olympian are not 90% negative. But I do think that a great majority of the comments there are the back and forth of two sides engaged in dichotomous, irresolvable conflict.

Another answer, Sarah

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 09/15/2007 - 6:43am.

Unless the forum is toxic - sondrak comes to mind - I assume that I will be treated with respect, kindness, humor and consideration, until such time that changes. In some forums, it can happen after your first post, as it has to me. Then you decide how important that particular person is (or small group) and sort it out from there.

I'm not intimidated by anyone. There is no reason to be, short of having them jam a gun in my face. Thus I don't shake easily.

With some forums, it's much like being the new kid on the block. You are immediately shunned or prejudged as the outsider and it takes some effort and one considerate person to allow you access to the inner sanctum.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

CAPS ARE COOL!

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:44am.

I agree they can be annoying. So can people, including me, including you. I don't understand how words presented on the screen equal yelling. If I'm really trying to yell must I use all CAPS? Would my message be less venomous if I used all lower case? I don't think so...

How does all CAPS equally yelling again? My penmanship is always in all CAPS. I must always be yelling.

This is the same conversation we saw re: the American Flag. It's personal preference and the prescribed etiquette doesn't really mean much to me.

If you do have a post with all CAPS or a comment with all CAPS, what about it makes you want to change it other than it is in all CAPS? If the content is allowable I don't really think it matters enough to change it.

Good questions

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:50am.

We human beings are still learning how our brains work. Some of us actually do "hear" caps as yelling. Ultimately we might not understand this until we know more about how our brains process information.

But EG, to move away from the caps question now, how do you yourself evaluate forums? How do you decide to join in or not/fit in or not?

Content - 9 out of 10 times

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:59am.

Content - 9 out of 10 times it's all about the content. And not only the quality of the content but the speed at which it is posted. I'm on another forum for a Yamaha music product (AW1600) and it's slooooow moving. I tend to disengage when the content becomes stale.

I lurked on Olyblog for several months before joining. And to be quite honest, it was a hotly contested subject that got me to join! Oh no...

Layout and usability don't generally factor in to my decision unless the site is completely whack.

EG

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:01pm.

Do you participate in Olympian comments too? I think lurking is great. As is diving in on whatever strikes our fancy.

I do - but not as much these

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:06pm.

I do - but not as much these days. My handle on The Olympian is Zach. I've only posted a few times in the past couple of weeks and I don't address anyone - just the article itself from now on.

Here is my last comment:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/theolympian/216025/#543679

Getting local

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:08pm.

Very cool, you encouraged readers to get local.

And I have Olyblog to thank

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:14pm.

And I have Olyblog to thank for that bit of adjustment in my progress as a human being.

The gospel of local........

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:39pm.

....is worthy gospel to spread.

I think it is going to be a life long process for me. Maybe it is one of the big human quests: to figure out exactly where we are. Good start for many people could be to learn what watershed they live in.

i never thought of that

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:55am.

My handwriting is in all caps also. No wonder nobody likes me very much, I'm constantly screaming at them with my written words.

I hold a stone in my hand

No no, we love you

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:57am.

For me, it is very different, written text vs. typed. I hear typed caps as yelling, but I don't read handwritten ones that way. Partly because my own handwriting now sucks badly and I often use all caps. In fact I wonder if keyboarding has killed my ability to hand write legibly.

It shouldn't matter, but it does.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:55am.

We could spend a lot of time trying to justify what has become a common convention, but that won't change anything. Typing in ALL caps is, for some reason, considered rude online behavior...like wearing your hat in church. Everyone is free to disregard such conventions, but only at the risk of creating acrimony. Such conventions are not fair and they are a very interesting topic, but I think the train has left the station on this one. At least in this blog.

no fair!

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:57am.

If the pope gets to wear his funny hat in church so should everybody else.

It's because he's the Pope dude.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:05pm.

Don't you know nothing Rob? The Pope is allowed to wear a CAP...hey, that's wierd.

Now no more about caps from me. On with why Olyblog is not the Olympian.

Agreed

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 11:59am.

And I'm holding up a big sign that reads "How is OlyBlog not The Olympian"? G. man came up with a good definition, what is yours (the rest of you reading)?

I think it was an attempt to

Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:08pm.

I think it was an attempt to let tone and inflection be understood in the online world. We had ;-), and various other codes and icons to try to indicate we're kidding or speaking lightly :) and since ALL CAPS is large, right there in your face, and visually LOUD it got adopted.

Careful There Ehver...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 1:58pm.

I got a private message from a certain docent demanding I stop using all caps in my titles... Then he went & changed all my previous posts to lower case!

And for the record, nobody sees all caps as yelling anymore! I asked my teenage kids who live on the computer and they said "Mom, that's so yesterday! People use caps now to get someones attention. Nobody sees it as yelling!"

And to grab attention is the sole reason I use(d) caps. Not to yell! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooked!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Trust me Onry, nobody is

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:05pm.

Trust me Onry, nobody is overlooking you at this point ;)

HHHmmm...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:11pm.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?! A direct or indirect way of saying, "STHU"? Because for the record, my official title is: JstPlnOnry C.O.A & L.O.P

For those not in the "know" I earned my C.O.A. (Center of Attention) & L.O.P (Life of the Party) degrees when I was 5 and still proudly display the knowledge I learned to earn them!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Just me messin with ya =)

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:23pm.

Just me messin with ya =)

I Know!

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:30pm.

Without reading any inflection in your posts, I've come to determine you & I are a lot alike! Vocal, ornery and opinionated but we try very hard to do all 3 lightly and with the best intentions!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

i

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:09pm.

type in lower case because I don't want to divert attention from the more important posts that are all caps.

My Fragile Ego

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:12pm.

thanks you Guglielmo!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Take a breath there :)

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:13pm.

We can certainly agree to disagree on the perception of caps. Many folks prefer that lots of caps not be used. Some folks don't care, some folks prefer all caps. What is important is that we are here now.

If you would like my own personal feedback, as a fellow community member, your writing style in this post feels dramatic. Escalating. And maybe even itching for a fight. Now, you might not at all mean any of this. If you don't, maybe we all can work together to find some common ground.

Did the msg from the docent actually demand? Is there a possibility that they wrote the msg assertively, not demandingly? When you use lots of !!!, what do they mean to you, how are you using them? To me, they convey excitement, possible dramatic emphasis.

If you feel overlooked here on OlyBlog, feel free to msg me and/or talk with me more here. We can probably come up with solutions.

Truthfully, your writing style semi-freaks me out. (Imagine me smiling in a friendly fashion here, cause I am.) I feel like I better get ready for some intense confrontational type stuff.

I'm possibly misreading you, lots. And you possibly can take suggestions, or even direction, not as aggressive actions but as a welcome to the community here is how we tend to do things type of message.

I have more ideas but want to give you a chance to respond.

MHO...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:41pm.

Assertive & demanding are pretty much one in the same. At least when dealing with my kids they are!

I use a lot of dramatic emphasis because I like to be a drama queen! That's my C.O.A. & L.O.P degrees coming into play!!! (see!?) To me, !!! means I'm very happy, glad or excited! ??? Means I'm really questioning something.

I didn't realize I had a "writing style" or one that could freak someone out. I've gotten many PM's telling me how much the writer(s) enjoy my posts and how much they like me. I'm a very outward, open, happy person who likes to convey that to others. I'm not confrontational and as I said below, prefer to express my aggressions privately. I'm disheartened you find my posts could freak you out to a point where I don't feel comfortable posting anything or I'll worry that what I would post would be considered some intense confrontational type stuff. But I guess it's better to know now and stop than to not know at all and continue to post.

Beings that I'm so non-confrontational, I hardly post looking for a fight. Just the opposite quite honestly. I realize I've taken issue with one particular community member here but honestly believe I've done so with the best intentions, not looking for a fight. If you read all posts, you'll see in one particular one where he tried to keep engaging me, I walked away.

I'm always open to new ideas but at this point, I'm not feeling too welcome or comfortable posting anything else so I don't know that any suggestions for improvements in my writing style or personality would benefit you or anyone else.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Hold on matey :)

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:43pm.

Definitely I am not telling you not to post. I think we have what is called a communication break down here. That is okay, we will survive.

I have this insane urge to

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:07pm.

I have this insane urge to call you spongebob after reading that subject line.

Kids these days, they've got

Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:16pm.

Kids these days, they've got no respect. What with their attention getting caps worn indoors.

It made me think, though, that someone could come bounding into a room or a conversation and shout (is it okay if I put it down as SHOUT?) to grab attention: They got my attention, but I might not care to hear it from them.

I want to make sure this doesn't come across as me accusing you of anything Onry, or even comparing you to that behavior. I like hearing what you have to share with us.

It's All

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:43pm.

good!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Voted 1

Submitted by DC on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:24pm.

Is that an eye roll?

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:31pm.

If so, I gotta steal it.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

rolleyes

Submitted by DC on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:34pm.

Don't worry Larry, I have plenty of these for you.

Humor

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:36pm.

We recognize this as humor, awk

Must consume mass quantities with Beldar.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

i make sure to overlook posts in all caps

Submitted by emmettoconnell on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:45pm.

Just saying.

I tend to read them with a

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:57pm.

I tend to read them with a grain of salt. I have known others (outside our blog) who will simply skip them. You are not alone.

I guess I have to ask why?

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:16pm.

I guess I have to ask why? Because you deplore messages in all caps? I just don't understand why you would ignore someone because of style.

old chat/MUD (that acronym

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:20pm.

old chat/MUD (that acronym is capped, don't blame me) habit. The people who wrote in caps tended to be the spammers, idiots, crazy-folks or people who just really wanted to annoy you. In those realms you only had so much space, and if you've used Telnet before, you know that you can't scroll up if someone takes up a bunch of space with caps and you miss the dialogue before that.

I get it. I'm just not

Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:23pm.

I get it. I'm just not with it, if you know what I mean. It's cool though, no more CAPS for me unless I want to be ignored. Now I know two ways to be ignored here! =)

Yer fine

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:25pm.

And now I wanna know the first way to be ignored here, let me know.

I'm tellin you my friend

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:26pm.

I'm tellin you my friend italics is the shizzzznit.

Speaking only for myself, I

Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:21pm.

Speaking only for myself, I literally cannot read paragraphs onscreen in all caps. To my eyes it's no different than a run on post with no breaks.

I'm sure I've missed content I might have found valuable, which is unfortunate.

For some reason all caps on paper doesn't hurt my eyes as much. Maybe it's got something to do with lights and pixels.

my prerogative, I guess. I

Submitted by emmettoconnell on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:28pm.

my prerogative, I guess. I have an already large media diet, I guess I just use the all caps test as a way to decide what I'm not going to read.

I look for the rules first, then see who follows them...

Submitted by DC on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:11pm.

I think the major problem with this board is that the expectations of its users are not clearly defined. I understand what you are saying about lurking to get a feel for things, and I agree, but you can't expect everyone to just figure out what is acceptable without some guidelines.

I did find this comment policy:

http://olyblog.net/node/1594

But it looks old, and the comment rating is disabled? If it was enabled, I'd be voting down plenty of garbage from the sidelines.

Anyway, you need to define what is and is not acceptable on this board, and determine how those rules can be enforced.

Some rules/guidelines for users from a much larger message board.

Before you post: Before postinging something new, please ask yourself the following question: "Am I making a post which is either funny, informative, or interesting on any level?"

If you can answer "yes" to this, then please post. If you cannot, then refrain from posting.

Before you reply to a thread: Before replying, please ask yourself the following question: "Does my reply offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?"

If you can answer "yes" to this, then please reply. If you cannot, then refrain from replying.
Respect the Mods and Writers: The moderators are here to keep the forums safe, sane, and secure. Please do not harass or intentionally annoy the mods or insult the front page writers.
Harass and Sass: If somebody is harassing you on the forums then discuss it with them over PM or email before contacting a mod about it. Flames and insults do not constitute harassment. Please do not post others' personal information (phone number, addresses, emails, etc.). Try to stay out of other peoples' personal lives as well. Keep in mind there's a good distinction between the Internet and real life.
Crazy Catchall: Please do not try to cleverly circumvent some rule listed here. These rules are general guidelines and are very flexible.
It works for their 100,000+ membership. Mostly because they put you on probation from contributing if you break these rules, then ban you if you keep it up.
I have to say, I don't think a bunch of you would last a day with any sort of structure. At first I was pretty excited to have found a local blog, with some good discussion about local issues, but I'm finding it's just another unmoderated playground where people can just argue about who's smarter/funnier/better.
Also, I'm going to provide a couple definitions of what a "troll" is becuase it fits the bill in several cases here:
1. A person who makes posts (on newsgroups or other forums) that are solely intended to provoke responses from others, or to cause annoyance or offense.

2. A post that is intended to incite controversy or cause offense. (Many posts may inadvertently cause strife as collateral damage, but they are not trolls.)

For many, the term has negative connotations and is often applied as an insult.

The response of someone accused of trolling can vary widely from hurt indignation to verbal abuse, raising the stakes with inflammatory remarks maligning the motivation of the accuser.

Trolls is often described as online versions of the breaching experiment, where social boundaries and rules of etiquette are broken. Self-proclaimed trolls often challeng the dominant discourse and assumptions of the forum they are trolling in an attempt to subvert and introduce different ways of thinking.

Trolls are sometimes caricatured as socially inept. This is often due to the fundamental attribution error, as it is impossible to know the real traits of an individual solely from their online discourse. Indeed, since intentional trolls are alleged to knowingly flout social boundaries, it is difficult to typecast them as socially inept since they have arguably proven adept at their goal.

Origins
The terms "trolling" and "troll-posting", like the term flamebait, originated as a fishing metaphor: like people who troll for fish, trolls were baiting reactions of anger, shock, or argument. Later, the verb became a noun; a troll-poster was simply called a troll, an intentional comparison with the trolls of folklore.

Great point

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:22pm.

That is what I do also, I ideally find some guidelines and/or faqs to work with. Lurking might not give me a sense of the history of a site, in other words the site might currently be going through unusual for them flame wars, if I assumed the general tone from that I'd be wrong.

Rick began this site a little over 2 years ago and we've grown quite a bit.

DC, am I reading your post right, this is in your own voice? -

It works for their 100,000+ membership. Mostly because they put you on probation from contributing if you break these rules, then ban you if you keep it up.

I have to say, I don't think a bunch of you would last a day with any sort of structure. At first I was pretty excited to have found a local blog, with some good discussion about local issues, but I'm finding it's just another unmoderated playground where people can just argue about who's smarter/funnier/better.

I've also been hearing something different, that the Olympian comment moderation hasn't been working well. I guess ultimately our (OlyBlog is all of us) question is how to find a balance?

Balance

Submitted by DC on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:44pm.

Yes that's in my own voice.

And you are correct that boards can be over moderated to a point where it drives the readers and membership away.

I'll tell you what I've seen work.

The moderation model has a well thought out set of ground rules that define acceptable interaction on the board. Sometimes those rules are handed down and sometimes the community develops them. Either way, the rules have to be treated as unbreakable and there has to be some consequence for breaking them. The rules are enforced by a group of moderators that have to monitor all postings and users for acceptable behavior. Usually those moderators are scrutinized by certain parts of the membership in just about everything they do, so those mods have to hold themselves to a very high standard. Moderation should be done by at least 3 people, with decisions only made and enacted by consensus. This model requires a lot of the moderators, and there's frequently turn over in mods because people can get burned out dealing with stupid people on the internet.

The digg/bury model lets the membership vote on topics/responses made by a user. If a topic or reply is voted down sufficiently, the message is buried and usually not visible in a thread. For example, if an inflammatory remark was made and 75% of the views on that remark vote it down, it drops from my view. I could raise or lower that threshold to fine tune what I see. This lets the community self moderate, and it does tend to create a tone that reflects the majority opinion. This can polarize membership and leave certain users feeling they don't have a voice.

Personally I think you need to do both. Create some ground rules, some consequences, then a system for people to provide feedback to the moderation team about content. Not a big dialog, but maybe a rating system of 1-5. If someone keeps getting voted 1, maybe the mods should take a look at why and deal with it then.

Seriously I only found this board when you guys did the restaurants in Oly thread and really never wanted to get sucked into the drama that's all over. If there's nothing but squabbling here, I'll just move on.

Good stuff

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 12:51pm.

Great ideas on the moderation model and I agree with your view on the digg/bury model.

Have you checked out our Books & Collections that are ever evolving? Archives may give you more of a sense of the wide range of conversations we have here. And this thread right here and now has at its core a discussion, not squabbling.

You sound like you easily might have done some moderating in your time, if so, how did you prevent burn out - if you did?

Discusssion

Submitted by DC on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 1:20pm.

I agree you and I are having a good discussion here, and you are doing a nice job of keeping the thread on topic in other areas. The squabbling has/is been happening mostly in other threads, and I think it's great you're here trying to find solutions.

I've done some moderation, and communicate pretty frequently online. Some things I've learned:

Never moderate alone.

Always come to a consensus agreement with the other moderators.(don't agree to disagree)

As hard as it is, don't react. Don't get sucked into stooping to someone elses level. Put down the computer if you have to. Ask another mod to take care of it for you. Do the same for them.

If you ban/probate/whatever tell everyone the reason.

Be consistent.

Don't plan to moderate forever. It's ok to take a break.

I'll check out the archives. I looked real quick and saw years of pics from the free wall and that's pretty cool.

Great discussion and it is more than just me

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 1:34pm.

It may not be immediately evident, but the reason I can sometimes do a decent job moderating is because of the other docents here. I also learn from our members too. Sometimes the good stuff is buried deep in comment threads, I just managed to pull out an ongoing thought from Rick and highlight it for this discussion.

We recently had a docent leave and we'll be eventually taking on more.

I appreciate the points you laid out and will be mulling them over.

My Take On It...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:28pm.

I'm a 42 year old mom of 3 daughters (16, 18 & 22) who has a grandson who will be 3 in February. I come here to play with adults! If I want to play games, call or get called names or throw verbal punches I'll go hang out with my girls and or grandson!

Being that I consider us all adults, I realize the importance of ones opinion being just as, if not more important than others. I find no reason for anyone to stiffle the thoughts & opinions of others online whether it's through deletion or banishment. When somebody ruffles my feathers, I say "buck up cowgirl"! I can choose to engage, but what's the point? I've made my point in writing, I'm not likely to change anybody elses adament opinion (especially anybody who feels theirs is more important than mine and resorts to antagonism, name calling, complaining and vendettas), and it's on to the next topic.

If I have to choose a weapon of choice, mine would be humor! I pride myself in looking for the humor in all situations and facing life with the knowledge that I'm no more or less important than the person I'm engaging conversation with and am due no special considerations! I live life treating others as I would hope to be treated, with respect. Anger is a condition in which the gongue works faster than the mind!

I don't write moderators complaining my feelings are hurt or attack back publicly. I just shrug my shoulders and move on! Or private message my aggressions with those I feel comfortable PMing! ROFL!

Wouldn't it be great if we could all do that?! With that said, I leave you with this:

I thought a thought. But the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I thought. If the thought I thought I thought had been the thought I thought, I wouldn't have thought so much.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Demanding?

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:36pm.

JstPlnOnry,

Please refrain from using the ALL CAPS in your titles. It feels like yelling.

Cheers,

Rick

Now, does that really sound like demanding to you?

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Being On The Receiving End...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:54pm.

Yes, but it doesn't matter because no matter how I answer you, it won't be the right answer.

I really don't know how I got off on the wrong foot with you but I seriously don't want to keep being one of the people you have issues with.

You tried to get me to engage yesterday and I walked away, and I choose to walk away again.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

That's cool.

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:08pm.

Everyone gets to walk away. I was genuinely interested in how you interpreted that message as demanding. Seemed like a request to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

It's cool Rick. I wouldn't

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:00pm.

It's cool Rick. I wouldn't have taken that personally from you, however I have known you for a little while. I can see how someone may look at your sentence and see that as being just a few inches short of a demand. Kind of a polite, but strong request. Y'know?

I didn't take it as

Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:17pm.

I didn't take it as demanding but then I imagined hearing it as if the "speaker" had said it condescendingly. Thin stiff lips, folded arms, like a teacher. "Miss Eddy, please do not do that." "We do not do that here."

The "ALL CAPS" portion, if it had been read with a perceived inflection, wouldn't have helped.

My bet is that you merely made a polite request. You even explained yourself.

We all understand our own intention, we aren't always prepared for, or know how to understand, other peoples' perception.

I think y'all are putting CAPS

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 2:59pm.

on my fun vent is what I think.

So Is Getting Your Fun Vent

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:00pm.

capped a good thing or a bad thing? LOL! Consider that a question from one who thought she'd found her fun vent but just found out she was wrong!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Oops,

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:03pm.

I tried to edit my CAPS in my headline, but I can't anymore. No disrepect intended. And Onry, capping the fun vent is never a good idea, unless you're in the middle of a funeral.

Want them edited?

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:05pm.

You don't have to at all, but if you wanna, I can wave the magic wand.

Geez...

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:21pm.

I guess I really need to figure out where this fun vent is located! Mine especially!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Wave away

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 3:09pm.

I don't want to set a bad example.

Sorry bout that

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 10:14pm.

Looks like another wand got to it, so it is all good. Which it was anyway already. Good that is. And surely a pun can be crafted out of "set a bad example" but I can't think of one right now.

Boy, am I glad I checked in...

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 09/14/2007 - 10:09pm.

Everything is the same.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

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