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Submitted by Paul on Fri, 08/17/2007 - 11:14am.
Here’s the news about Camp Quixote: There is none. With only the minor stress and strains anyone would endure on moving day, Olympia’s mobile tent city for the homeless found its way to a new home at St. John’s Episcopal Church, Capitol Way at 20th Ave. Thursday. No newspaper reporter or photographer sightings. The Olympian published only a small brief on the move in Thursday’s paper. Remember Camp Quixote’s first moving day in February? The one met at dawn by a squad of OPD’s finest clad in riot gear? Things changed. The camp was befriended by people of faith, first the Unitarian Universalist Church on Olympia’s west side through mid-May, then The United Churches at Capitol Way and 11th Ave., both hosting the camp in 90-day stints. Residents came and went, many finding work and a secure place to live. A few had to be evicted. A couple wed in the camp in July. In early July the city councils of Olympia and Tumwater, recognizing the need made visible by Camp Quixote, passed nearly identical emergency ordinances establishing a mobile tent city as a legitimate transitional housing option for those without a home. |
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Camp Quixote |
It's good to hear that
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 08/17/2007 - 12:05pm.It's good to hear that everything is going well!
What a great story
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 08/17/2007 - 1:07pm.Interesting
Submitted by hammered on Sat, 08/18/2007 - 1:34pm.Hi troll,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 08/18/2007 - 7:22pm.not easy being green?
Submitted by enpen on Sun, 08/19/2007 - 4:39am.You, sir, suck. Perhaps you could go get some work done instead of harassing people online.
Mr Richards...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 1:05pm.If you feel that “Hammered” is being less than honest why don’t you post a photo of the police in riot gear as the homeless shelter moved on the day in question? Wouldn't that resolve the issue with out question?
C.
I don't understand
Submitted by Sarah on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 1:54pm.I don't understand attack comments on community blogs. I don't understand why anyone would choose to write them. I especially don't understand drive-bys. I guess I don't understand repeats either. Especially when they read oh so very personally targetted.
I have to wonder where the friendly conversation among equals is. We can easily agree to disagree, no worries on that one. There truly is a way to discuss and even debate without personal attacks. And you know, as I write this, I wonder if I will be the next person jumped on.
I'll take a bullet for you
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 2:00pm.I'll take a bullet for you wing-girl.
If anyone wants to jump, jump me!
*Helping to form a human
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 2:30pm.Um, Sarah needs no other
Submitted by OperaGirl on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:14pm.Sheesh
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:23pm.Cookie...Muscles...are we
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:23pm.It's a fair call, but Society's to blame. ~ Right! We'll be charging them too!
I didn't want her to feel
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:06pm.OlyBlog Human Shield Team
Submitted by Sarah on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 6:53am.I honestly appreciate all this and methinks Norm and Merwyn get special access passes to that tree house. Though OG is indeed my main bodyguard so you'all might have to cage fight out the remaining positions.
Sell tickets to that cage fight, raise moolah for OlyBlog.
Plus I'll participate in the OlyBlog Human Shield Team effort here also. We can work to make sure none of us feel singled out and bashed unfairly.
Interesting how some folks want to scapegoat anything and anyone to do with Camp Quixote. This is something seen all over when it comes to issues of poverty and homelessness.
Thinking about what you said...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:32pm.Here is what I do not understand, Mr. Richards chooses to call names, in an effort to dismiss someone's opinion. Now personally I don't care if he calls names or not. I don't care if he calls me names or not. It only reflects on him. I do point it out because it is a demonstration of his character. He doesn't like someone and so he calls them a name in an effort to dismiss his point of view rather than engage in a discussion or debate. I think it is somewhat unfair and or disingenuous of him particularly on this issue, taking into consideration his contributions with homeless people.
Your comments strike me as somewhat entertaining because you don't make any complaint or objection about Mr. Richards remarks, or the following remarks where someone (enpen?) says "You sir, suck". But rather you see me as attacking and being a big ol' meanie. Something here doesn't fit does it? What further intrigues me is how you view questions for Mr. Richards as an attack. I asked him very direct questions that call into question what happened on that day. Is Mr. Richards forwarding an agenda or not? Is he supporting the truth in this matter, particularly when it comes to the demeanor of the police? You don't find any attacks from Enpen or Mr. Richards worthy of comment, why is that?
If you feel I am wrong about something and you call me on it, I don't see that as an attack. I am here to discuss opinions, issues, and events, and I do it from a conservative point of view. If you find fault with something I say, or the tone in which I say it I am more than happy to discuss it and clear up any misunderstanding, with out feeling attacked. On the other hand, perhaps it is worth evaluating what is really an attack and what is an honest and perhaps passionate discussion.
C.
Hammered created their
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:54pm.Rob and Enpen both could've kept quiet or said something different; I am aware that I need to look in the mirror when I make that admonishment. Rob is fiercely protective of the PPU.
As for Sarah my money's on her comments applying to all of us, but I'll let her speak for herself.
Not Defending Hammered...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:00pm.I do not know who Hammered is and I don't care. I don't need or want to defend them. I took issue with Rob's name calling and how Sarah thinks I was attacking. Unless I missed something big somewhere, neither I nor Hammered attacked anyone. On the other hand Rob and Enpen can not say the same.
C.
I don't see where Sarah said you were attacking anyone
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:12pm.I read it as a comment about name calling in general.
I disagree with your assessment of Hammered's comments however. He pointed out the inconsistency in reports about police in riot gear. Fair enough. Then for some reason he was compelled to post the following:
The tone and content of this "sidebar” are designed to illicit responses such as “Hi troll” and “You, sir, suck.” Hammered was intentionally and unnecessarily inflammatory.
So If I Understand...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:36pm.It is Hammered's fault that people are rude and try to obfuscate the issue? Is that what you are saying?
C.
No...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:46pm.if I had a hammer
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 1:02pm.Tschida, you say that Rob calling hammered a troll is "an effort to dismiss [hammered's] opinion." You claim that calling hammered a troll is "a demonstration of [Rob's] character" and question whether it is, perhaps, an attempt to "obfuscate the truth and promote an agenda". As well you claim that your series of questions (the one involving possible truth disguising included) are merely "questions directed to (Rob), not accusations." To this all, my conclusion is oh please, and here are the premises to back it up:
(1) Rob calling hammered a troll is a demonstration of his character to you. Stating that it is a demonstration of his character period makes you guilty of regarding your subjective world view as objective fact. If an abusive personality walks into a room and alludes to things formerly said (like this and this) then it is a continuation of the former conversation (or lack thereof) rather than some clean slate that demands all full attempts at discourse. Just because you are unaware of previous trollish behavior on hammered's account, Tschida, does not mean it was lacking. Hammered, as has been made plain before, is not here for a conversation or to be edified. Hammered is here to tell people that he's better than them and to insult them further on top of that.
(2) If your questions are genuine attempts to glean knowledge from Rob rather than some obfuscated form of accusation, then why not include questions such as, "did you call hammered a troll because he has exhibited a pattern of such behavior?", or even a simple (nice rhetoricial use of the term on your part, by the way), "is what hammered said true?" No, instead you asked questions that direct the conversation. Where prior to your statement it may not have crossed a reader's mind that some agenda promoting plot to truth obscure was underway, afterwards the same could not be said. If I were to ask you, "Tschida, are you attempting to force your understanding of a Christian value system on other people through online conversations?", you would be right in feeling like I loaded the question. And it would be very similar to the way you loaded that string of "simple" questions you let loose.
(3) hammered's previous behavior on OlyBlog when taken into context with his latest posting sucks. As I'm a bit of an existentialist and like to color my commentary with this subjective interpretation of the world, hammered therefore sucks. Due to the suckage that is hammered, Rob's dismissive attitude toward his latest outburst is appropriate.
From this all only one conclusion to what you've said can possibly be derived. Oh, please.
I was worried about responding to this
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 8:04am.I've said this twice already, but here it goes again...
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 10:14am.So you're saying
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:03am.Folks, it was Paul, whoever
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:08am.So Rob said
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:25am.I'm about ready to put on
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:31am.It's a fair call, but Society's to blame. ~ Right! We'll be charging them too!
OlyBlog riot gear
Submitted by Sarah on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:33am.The funny part is that I can
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:36am.Does the jukebox have The
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:38am.It's a fair call, but Society's to blame. ~ Right! We'll be charging them too!
I'll be the guy
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:43am.yes,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:10am.That's not funny! My teddy
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:35am.That's not funny! My teddy wears a duty belt too so if you start talkin smack he may just put you in your place!
What...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:42am.Norm means business. His
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:44am.It's a fair call, but Society's to blame. ~ Right! We'll be charging them too!
That's right darnit!
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:53am.keeping things in mind
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 3:28pm.I don't know Hammered's past and it makes no difference in this instance, at least to me.
Then you are obfuscating your agenda. Hammered has appeared in the past with similar rhetoric and passed off actual attempts at dialogue. What you seem to be demanding here is for Rob to keep trying to play an album on a broken record player. Until hammered is mystically infused with some sort of empathy regarding the denizens of Camp Quixote attempting to converse with him has proven to be a very literal example of tilting at windmills.
From what was written there is a discrepancy between two opinions regarding the police and how their demeanor and dress. It was a legitimate discussion point, and was disregarded.
There's a book on OlyBlog dedicated to Camp Quixote. It's there so that people have a source for educating themselves regarding the Camp and it's accumulating history. All of hammered's talking points are addressed there, so as Rob said, it comes down to you either believe hammered or you believe people who were in the camp.
What I didn't do was hold forth my opinion as fact. I put forth Rob's words and attitude as fact, and then made a subjective judgment regarding what Rob said. There is a difference and you would do well to keep that in mind.
You're exactly right; there is a huge difference. So let us review what you did indeed type: "(n)ow personally I don't care if he calls names or not. I don't care if he calls me names or not. It only reflects on him. I do point it out because it is a demonstration of his character." Oh, how strange. I only see a subjective qualifier about whether or not you care about Rob calling people names. Other than that, I see a bunch of declarative sentences. So is the subjective necessarily implied? And if you're arguing for that gray wiggle room in your language, then why on earth are you demanding people respond to things you regard as legitimate questions when outside of that one-time vacuum they become illegitimate? To be honest, your attitude regarding this conversation (refusal to consider outside factors in your analysis and your line of questions, for example) reeks of projection to me. Call me crazy, but you questioning Rob's agenda immediately sounds off the b.s. klaxons in my head. Maybe your unconscious is aware of your agenda and simply releases it in accusations of others...?
Klaxons... funny....
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 4:31pm.I don't make any effort to hide my point of view or agenda. If you don't like the constraints of the discussion why do you participate? Wiggle room? Don't need it. Why would I defend or take up the battle for Hammered? I don't know him/them. My point was about Rob, and his point of view as I precieved it. Sure there are some unknowns in the mix which is why I asked direct questions. As for who to specifically believe, I don't believe either side, Hammered or Rob. It sounds as though the police did their job but didn't wear riot gear.
Lastly, if you ever feel I am obfuscating my own agenda, just ask me directly and I will tell you exactly where I am comming from, and where I think things should be going.
C.
okay Tschida
Submitted by enpen on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 7:28pm.If you don't like the constraints of the discussion why do you participate?
...because I'm trying to be a participant in community dialogue within which an environment of empathetic learning is fostered.
My point was about Rob, and his point of view as I precieved it.
Yes. And my point is that you were making declarative statements out of ignorance, an ignorance easily remedied by asking more open and less directed questions, or by clicking on the Camp Quixote hyperlink and reading through past discussions.
As for who to specifically believe, I don't believe either side, Hammered or Rob. It sounds as though the police did their job but didn't wear riot gear.
Is there any particular reason that you don't believe the residents of Camp Quixote when they tell us that on the morning of their prearranged move they were woken by O.P.D. officers shaking their tents, and that at least some of these officers made disparaging comments and/or laughed at the residents as they attempted to move their camp? Or do you believe that occurred and you just think it's a part of their job to dehumanize? Whether or not the police wore riot gear is really a minor issue here. The police had billy clubs, the residents of Camp Quixote did not. The police had guns, the residents of Camp Quixote did not. The police had legal sanction to act authoritatively, the residents got to worry that anything they say/do can and will be used against them. But maybe you're right. Maybe in the middle of all of this, what really is important is to try disparage a local activist by questioning his character. Right...on...target.
So once again, I'll reiterate my previous conclusion: Oh, please.
Declaritive statements and questions.
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 12:57pm.The bulk of your statement is regarding how the police treated the homeless in their tents. Shaking the tents, rousting them up in the morning to get them moving, and laughing at them. I don't think this is dehumanizing them at all. Of course no one likes to be laughed at but when it happens to me I don't feel dehumanized. That is just ridiculous.
Police have "Billy clubs" and guns. Ummmm.... yeah they are the police. They have authority over the citizens of Olympia.
Here is my favorite bit, "The police had legal sanction to act authoritatively, the residents got to worry that anything they say/do can and will be used against them." It can only be used against them if they are breaking the law, correct?
So you feel like I am disparaging a local activist, because of what I point out? Well perhaps this is the crux of your argument; your feelings are hurt because of what I said to Rob. What do you want me to do? Only offend people you don't know? Not say what I think? Not engage in discussion because you feel like I didn't read enough on the topic?
C.
wow
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 1:09pm.Feel free to just keep typing. Though our language has a similar look, we clearly aren't engaging in communication here and it's not particularly fun watching somebody try to dig up. I'll just shake my head, go clean up the kitchen and get ready to play with my kid. A way better use of my time.
Wow
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 3:14pm.I feel like and am doing EXACTLY the same thing here.
C.
You don't feel dehumanised
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 3:19pm."It can only be used against them if they are breaking the law, correct? "
This is not correct at all, and again highlights your privileged life. If you had ever been homeless you would know that the police don't just approach you because you're breaking a law.
"Not engage in discussion because you feel like I didn't read enough on the topic?"
I want you to engage in discussion, it's not fun doing what we've done so far. If we were having a discussion, I would feel like I was being listened to, and I don't.
Or as Someone once wrote
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 8:34pm.that's a mighty big word
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:55pm.*grumble*
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:22pm.Stupid format
Tschida (if that is your real name)
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:45pm.Please accept my humblist apologies for pointing out the trollishness of Hammered, next time I will keep it to myself and not speak my mind. It was quite brutish of me and I should have been more sensitive to your feelings. If you could find it in your heart to show me the smallest bit of forgiveness, I promise to never act in such a manner again.
May the lord bless you and keep you,
Rob
They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey
obfuscate
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:49pm.1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.
(I wanted to post this just in case there is anybody on the blog who is not sure what this word means, or doesn't know how to use it properly)
Forgiveness
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 10:29am.Mr. Richards, It is not my place to offer or give the forgiveness that you sardonically seek. That is for Hammered to offer or refuse, not me. Personally I am not offended by your calling of names, but rather saw your word as an opportunity to demonstrate an aspect of your character.
Here is what I said about, of course pointing out how you chose not to engage in a discussion; “I have to wonder if calling names some how shields you from replying to what the guy said. [Emphasis added] There was no riot gear. Are you saying there was riot gear? Were you harassed? Or are you just obfuscating the truth to promote an agenda? Are you frustrated that the poisoned courtesy of "Oly's finest" was caught on to?” These were question directed to you, not accusations.
My name is Chris Brownell. I don’t hide my name as it is in my bio and on my blog. Your childish remarks again work to make you look immature. I am glad to see you know how to use a dictionary, now if you could see the context of the way I used it. Perhaps another day?
C.
Not sure why you are
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 10:52am.Oh, settle down.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 12:18pm.To answer your questions: Again, I never said anything about the cops wearing riot gear, that wasn't me. My friends and I are regularly harrassed by the OPD, as we were at 5am that morning. And I don't understand the last question, keep in mind I never went to college, so I ain't so bright sometimes, talk slow.
Anyhow, Chris, nice to meet you, I'm Rob.
"...fine upstanding
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 12:44pm.I forgive you, Norm
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 2:04pm.That was creepy. I feel like
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 10:25am.Not a cold one I hope
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:32am.Nope, very hot, with a bar
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:34am.Please, this is a family
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:36am.It's a fair call, but Society's to blame. ~ Right! We'll be charging them too!
Don't really care one way or the other 'bout Rob
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 11:26am.C.