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I've had it

Submitted by enpen on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:20pm.

f this

I am tired of spending my time building up a community resource only to constantly waste my time wading through arguments which negate my work. I am no longer going to do this.

I move to suspend comments for Jeff Brigham, OlyDowntowner, Norm & JT for the duration of 10 original hyper-local news stories. After a person writes 10 (judged by the docents on content) then that person gets comments re-enabled. I also move that this penalty be enforceable for any blogger in the future who continuously spends more time engaging in comment arguments than producting hyper-local content.

I hear so much talk about people taking personal responsibility so I think it's time to demand it of some of our more vocal Comments participants.

enpen's blog

I certanly don't help matters much

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:27pm.

I'm all-to-eager to add my 2-cents to argumentive threads. I'm trying to wean myself from them, but it's hard. Isn't there a proposal in the works about changing some things around here to keep the pissing mathces from flooding out local content.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Yup

Submitted by enpen on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:30pm.

But it will take some time. I've given a lot of my time to this already and I'm not willing to give much more.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

I was actually thinking

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:02am.

I was actually thinking about this the other day.

Obviously it's asking something from people who actually work on the site - of which I don't - so I hate to throw it out there, but what about separating national/international and local?

Local clearly would - and should - be the primary focus and dominate the site, placed in the most visible location.

The other stuff - "of interest" - would be off to the side. I think everyone is interested is discussing stuff non-Olympia but maybe promoting more South Sound stuff and putting only matters/threads/whatever pertaining to it would help promote more discussion of it.

Think of it as OlyBlog social engineering.

yeah

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:11am.

I am thinking of it as OlyBlog social engineering. I want OlyBlog to encourage locals to take a more active and participatory role in the development of our community. We're working on something similar to what you're talking about, but it does take time to develop just like everything else. What I'm talking about now is a stop-gap measure meant to disable a users ability to take energy from OlyBlog's development without giving like energy back.

I think I've mentioned this already, but it bears repeating: I am not willing to waste anymore of my time and I am not willing to see the time I have put in be wasted any further.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

I like TFI direction...

Submitted by epersonae on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:55am.

...and I hope the idea is considered. (note: this was actually posted by chad360, because he forgot to log out when he turned on our mutual computer.)

but that said....

Submitted by epersonae on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:57am.

I think having "departments", like a newspaper or TV station, might be useful for improving the content and tone of OlyBlog. I have some other still very vague ideas that I might post about later for making the structure of the site match its goals.

I agree

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:25pm.

And that really is something we are and would like to continue working toward. However it still doesn't solve the issue of people who would rather fight in the comments than create content. I don't think OlyBlog should be a welcoming place to those people anymore.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

I suggest you read my blog on my absense

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:59am.

and rethink your motion

I responded on that thread

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 6:50am.

And I'm still tired of wasting my time. I refuse to waste it on people who will not take it upon themselves to make this a positive space for our community.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

shutting down comments

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 2:15am.

It's important that we do what's best for OlyBlog. If certain individuals are participating in a way that discourages other peoples' participation, then I think some steps need to be taken.

What those steps are, I am not sure. Perhaps the tracker ought to be disabled to some extent; perhaps a narrower focus on what types of content to allow; perhaps a heart to heart conversation about how certain peoples' actions are affecting other people; perhaps, as enpen suggests, a sacrifice of liberal values and the consideration of banning (to some extent for a certain period).

I am open to solutions.

people have asked for names

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:10am.

In the past people have asked for the names of those who feel discouraged by the participation of some people on OlyBlog. Let me publicly put my name on the list. I am feeling discouraged from participating on OlyBlog due to the current atmosphere. I've decided to propose something that would make me feel better about my continued participation.

Argumentative and destructive to the value of OlyBlog? You're out until you start being constructive.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

enpen

Submitted by stevenl on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 6:00am.

You are a great docent and a creative, positive and unique contributor to OlyBlog. I hope you are just venting, which I can easily understand. There is no way I'd ever be a docent with the current climate-- it would be too much like babysitting! So thanks to you and the other docents for sacrificing your free time keeping this place running as volunteers. I hope you guys are being good to yourselves and taking breaks once in awhile.

hah

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:06am.

That's part of the problem. I took a break for almost four days, got a chance to clear my head of the OlyBlog cobwebs and then came right back into the middle of...people getting in name calling arguments without spending time building up the quality of OlyBlog as a resource for their neighbors. I think maybe the break provided the necessary distance to realize that I am not going to put up with that behavior on OlyBlog anymore. I have better things to do with my time than deal with mischaracterizations and flat-out falsehoods. I'm not leaving, but I'm not willing to spend more of my time like I'm some kind've time billionaire.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

It's the classic "freerider problem"

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:13am.

Some folks will enjoy the benefits (using the comment threads) without paying the cost (posting local content).

I think this is a better system than the three-strikes proposal that is currently on the table. I like it because it is easy to measure (quantitative rather than qualitative) and doesn't require as much machinery to implement. Also, it directly addresses the freerider issue by requiring participants to pay the costs.

The one adjustment I would make is to the number of posts required to comment: 10 seems like too much. What about 5? Or even 3? We could also determine a ratio of comments to posts that must be maintained in order to continue (10 or 15 to 1).

Good thinking, Jason!

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

Yeah, 10 seems lke a lot

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:27am.

But I like the idea of a minimum number of posts to earn commentling privileges.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

so I went over the top

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:15am.

10 is a lot. How about the number represent how many times somebody has had to have their comments shut-off and posts automatically fed into moderation? Such as, the first time a majority of the docents agree on a person then that person is responsible for 3 hyper-local posts. Second time, five. Third time, 10. Fourth time 20...etc., etc., et. If somebody is willing to provide OlyBlog with 20 hyper-local posts just so that they can get online and argue, then I'm inclined to let them...if only because I know the time commitment required to generate 20 posts.

quot;In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

maybe 10 is the tops.

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:29pm.

Three...Five...Ten. And then people can get comments blocked and generate 10 new hyper-local posts as often as they want to fight. I would gladly deal with some vitriol if it means that person also produces a lot of content. After all, it's really difficult to argue and produce, there just aren't that many hours in a day.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Good idea.

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:24am.

I like the lower rate that Rick suggests.

I don't know about breaking the line between creating content and creating hyper-local content.

I post a lot of stuff that is national or international, but I believe it is important to consider as we decide how we want to live in the South Sound area. Whether there are national or global concerns that we ought to consider as we put our shoes/sneakers/sandals/jackboots on each day. (pictures of jackboots modeled by hyperlocal thugs, please? need pics for reference and fashion sense)

Let's implement the strike model please.

Submitted by Mike on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:34am.

three strikes

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:18am.

Personally? I swallowed my dislike of that term in the interest of moving forward. I don't like three-strike legislation and outside of a baseball context, I don't care for the term. I'd rather come up with something directly encouraging people to create content for their neighbors.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

I agree.

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:24am.

The "post local" requirement is a much more elegant solution to the problem.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

Agreed

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:16am.

I propose we start today. Everyone with a clean slate.

If a majority of the docents finds a comment in violation of the social contract, the commenter is out until they come up with 3 original hyperlocal news posts. Original means written by the contributor not copy and pasted from somewhere else, hyperlocal means pertaining to a person, place, thing, or event in Olympia, and news means not opinion but factual (and fact checked) content. 2nd Offense, 5 pieces of content. Third offense, 10 pieces of content. Each additional offense (4 and above) increases the number required by ten.

Yes?

Yes and no

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:32am.

I like your basic idea and structure, especially the clean slate part, but I think your standards for hyperlocal content are too high. I think you should allow links to other news items(although not just copied and pasted stuff), and I don't think everything should have to be news. Like, for instance, couldn't I post something like: My sister is visiting with her three year old. What can you do around here to entertain three year olds?

That's not exactly news, but shouldn't this blog serve that sort of function, sharing hyperlocal information that isn't necessarily news?

absolutely

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:33pm.

I think that is an excellent function of OlyBlog and one which we should encourage. I'd vote that a post with a question like that would count as half of a hyper-local story and each person gets two halves per Comments ban. However, if the person calls up a couple of places or researches a few options online and posts those along with the question seeking other input, then I think something like that should count as an entire post.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

clean slate?

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:49pm.

I don't know. I'm particularly keen to start seeing some original hyper-local content from JT & Norm. As long time users neither of them have taken it upon themselves to create much resource material for OlyBlog. I say the buck stops here.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Enpen, Since you have

Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:35am.

Enpen,

Since you have mentioned me by name in your complaint, I feel that responding here is not out of order. Since my return to Olyblog, after a break, I have been making a special effort to follow the Social Contract in my posts and comments. I think that I have done a pretty good job of that. I have taken special efforts to refrain from insults or confrontational comments even when baited with comments such as:

“you're a republican? i always pinned you as a national socialist. huh”

“Jeff, does your support for Israel have anything to do with Rapture?”

“Too bad there are Jeff Brighams in the world.”

I sometimes get the impression that there are people on this blog that want to say “we welcome all views” but, when they post, only want to hear echoes. I think that they would like to have it both ways at the same time. I’m sorry; I don’t believe that any of us can have it both ways.

The “three strikes” concept would be a good process to try. Deal with specific violations of the Social Contract. And deal with them objectively no matter the political orientation of the poster/commenter. One big advantage of this would be the avoidance of generalities and wide judgment calls on persons. Right now, we have people attacking people. Instead of that; Deal with specific actions and specific violations of the Social Contract.

Jeff Brigham

"America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come."President Ronald Reagan

Thanks for the input Jeff,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 10:53am.

What do you think of the other idea that we've drafted? Personally, I like it because it gets us original local content. It's kind of like doing community service to beautify the neighborhood you vandalized, you learn to feel an ownership over it because you put so much work into it, and that makes you less likely to vandalize it again. Also, for those that don't care, it won't be worth their time, and they will be rooted out naturally.

For someone who violates...

Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 11:11am.

the speech code regularly, and who copies and posts only semi-local content quite regularly, you are making what seems to me huge demands. I very much enjoy this quote from Mr. Richards. "It's kind of like doing community service to beautify the neighborhood you vandalized..."

I am not 100% against the posting three items of local interest. If someone wants to post something from the Olympian of some where like that, with some editorial comment, I believe that as long as they put some thought into it, that should be good enough for being allowed to post.

Further, if the docents are going to ban people for this reason or that, then there needs to be fairness and some measure of impartiality going on. This is far from the case with the current docents. I suggest at least two be replaced with folks who are just as interested in the success of Olyblog as the rest of us, and who can actually work with out the blatant hypocrisy we have right now.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Thank you,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 11:26am.

I don't agree with you that I'm a hypocrite, and I don't think most people who use this blog would agree with you either. I have called other docents out on things they've said and other docents have called me out. The difference is that it didn't become a big deal because we listen to one another, and realize that we need to walk away and clear our heads, apologize, or retract something. The problems only start when someone calls someone else a name for example, then a docent reminds them of the social contract, and the name-caller goes off on a tirade trying to justify name-calling. It's OK to be emotional, it's even OK for you to hate me because I'm so smart and good looking, but it needs to become OK to admit when you crossed the line and step back. It's not a win/lose thing, everybody wins when we can have conversations where we learn from one another.

maybe

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:43pm.

If someone wants to post something from the Olympian of some where like that, with some editorial comment, I believe that as long as they put some thought into it, that should be good enough for being allowed to post.

As with my response to OlyDowntowner, I think posts like that should be worth 1/2 of an original hyper-local post and that each person should get two of those at a maximum. However, if the person follows up on the story by making a few calls or has an eye witness account to add to such a story, then I think it would be worth an entire post.

As far as those interested in the success of OlyBlog, I'd like to see more action and less thought behind such interest.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Rob, I would reserve a

Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 11:34am.

Rob,
I would reserve a final judgement on that until the the details in the process are available. You know the old saying, "the devil is in the details".

That said, I do think that any requirement such as "make 5 local posts before commenting" should apply to new members and not to a, shall we say, "select few" of existing members. It's the difference between "You are a problem" and "Your comment is a problem because". That is also why I think that the three strikes would be better. It helps get away from the "You are a problem". A person would know specifically what they have done that is causing a problem.

Also, I can see problems in the decisions on what is "local". A post with a subject on "Impeachment" would seem to NOT be local. But will someone see a post "Impeach Bush" to be local just because someone had a meeting about it or held some "Impeach Bush" signs?

Jeff Brigham

"America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come." President Ronald Reagan

good points.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:03pm.

I would think that covering a local event would look different than just posting an opinion about an topic. It may lead the comments in the same direction either way, but with a focus on the local I think it'd still be better than what we get now.

I agree with you that newcomers should have to produce local content before being given commenting rights, I also still think that if I call you an asshole, I should have to atone for that in some way. I think posting local content is a great way to do that, as well as apologizing of course.

new members

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:52pm.

I disagree. It took me awhile to start creating hyper-local content. I think we should encourage new members to take part in OlyBlog and stop them if they participate in a destructive manner, just like everybody else.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

hmmm

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:39pm.

I would argue that your assiduous avoidance of The Original Yoda's question regarding your opinion of the U.N. is an example of intellectual honesty. We don't welcome all views here. Racism and sexism, for instance, are not welcome. What is welcome here are genuine attempts to make OlyBlog a valuable resource for Olympians and those interested in Olympia. I would also argue that the majority of your posts do nothing to further that goal.

I recommend you start thinking of some ways to add to rather than detract from the OlyBlog community.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Enpen, I am adding to

Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:20pm.

Enpen,

I am adding to Olyblog. It's just that you do not like the news and views that I am adding. I think that there are others on Olyblog that DO value the news and views that I bring to Olyblog. Perhpas you should try some of that "intellectual honesty" yourself and cease accusing others of it.

I don't know where you get this "assiduous avoidance" crap. I do not comment on every post nor respond to every single comment. I realize that I DO NOT have to comment on everything. In fact, that would be a good idea for a lot of people around here. If you do not like a post, you do not have to comment. You ARE free to skip right on by a post and go the the ones that interest you! Just because you do not like a post does not mean that others ARE not interested in that topic. That also does not automatically mean that it should not be on Olyblog.

Jeff Brigham

"America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come." President Ronald Reagan

alright

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:21pm.

I am banning Jeff Brigham until he posts 3 hyper-local stories.

Edit: For the time being he is completely banned until I have the time to figure out how to properly filter it so that his posts must first be screened.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

seconded

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:36pm.

~~Jeff can post as he pleases at SondraK.~~ [apologies, I would like to retract that sentence.] There is no need for him or others to disrupt Olyblog. You have my support.

Delete it then,

Submitted by Ehver Green on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:48pm.

Delete it then, strikethrough is an edit tool, not a form of retraction. Nice try, though.

You should ban yourself

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 2:07pm.

You should ban yourself until you post three valid stories.

You might want to pack a toothbrush, people are going to come knocking, and people are going to jail, sooner rather than later.
Sheriff Dan Kimball, referring to videotaped rioters being identified.

That's bullshit what you're

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 2:06pm.

That's bullshit what you're doing. Jeff posted a comment of substance, you just happen to disagree with the message.

For the record I could care less for Jeff on a personal level, but fair is fair and right is right.

Seconded

Submitted by NWarty on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 2:08pm.

and the docents too

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:45pm.

I think Docents should be subject to this rule as well. The use of OlyBlog as a place to fight rather than create needs to stop.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

This is a therapeutic thread for me.

Submitted by oldtimeydave on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:55pm.

Thanks to Enpen for starting it. I'll start by saying Enpen is a far more patient man than I. I had given up months ago. Had I read about a list of fed up folks I would have added my name too. As it stands I missed that because I frequent Olyblog far less often these days.

What started out as a great community building project seems to have fallen an unfortunate victim to people who seemingly could care less about community and care more for selfishly being rude, sarcastic or just plain ornery and argumentative.

Ironically I'd urge Enpen to keep at it as it seems he is doing. He is a real inspiration for how things should be done. I can clearly see now that sticking to your guns (no pun intended) and ignoring the negative contributors is probably best for the community.

Retribution is fine and will probably prove helpful but I think these folks really get off on starting conflict and getting people's goats. If everyone ignored their behavior in the forums and the community moderated by striking said posts for the Docents to review.

I'll be doing my best to start participating and posting more. I'd urge anyone else who might have fallen off for the same reasons to do likewise.

For me the real sad part is that because of my infrequency I've missed out on or caught late a couple great oldtime music announcements from Rick. Damn!

Dave White - "Old Timey Dave"
Oldtime Design & Beverage Blog

Dave I've missed your voice

Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:04pm.

And thank you for taking the time to write on this. Someday we'll have to get together to talk art and Olympia. Your mural on the side of the Cherry St. Cafe makes me happy everytime I see it.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Thanks man. Like I said I

Submitted by oldtimeydave on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:10pm.

Thanks man. Like I said I think that people quitting is only adding to the problem so you can expect to see my posts more often.

Let's hold off on banning for at least a day.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 1:47pm.

Lets have a cool off period before we make the decision to ban someone. If we're voting, I vote no on banning Jeff right now.

Comments closed.

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 2:10pm.

Docents will confer and make a decision.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

OlyBlog.net

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