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Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 8:11am.
When given a choice between an image of the isthmus piled high with monolithic buildings and an image of the isthmus composed of a tree-lined park, most people are naturally drawn to the isthmus park concept. Although the air-brushed park image is enticing, we (OLY 2012) do not believe the isthmus park expansion is feasible in light of the City's land use and urban design objectives – even if our community could afford it. There are many reasons why an expanded isthmus park is not feasible, with density, sustainability, and transportation goals in the City's Comprehensive Plan being near the top. The City is way behind in reaching its downtown housing density goals. Just meeting the current City goals will require at least 20 blocks of downtown land (figuring 5 story buildings with parking built-in) dedicated solely to urban housing. Simply put, there is hardly enough room in downtown to accomplish our housing density objectives without being forced to build higher-than-mid-rise structures in most of it. Downtown already has 63 acres of park space, which occupies approximately 10 percent of the total downtown area. We just can't afford to add more downtown parks in locations prime for residential development if we truly want to meet the Comprehensive Plan goals. It should go without saying that not meeting our density goals will also stymie the sustainability and transportation objectives, which call for giving citizens the opportunity to live where use of a car is a choice and not a necessity. An expanded isthmus park is also not feasible from an urban design perspective. The design concepts of urban edges and continuous streets are ubiquitous throughout the Comprehensive Plan and are fully intended for the isthmus. The expanded isthmus park (with two major cross-town thoroughfares running through it no less) would inhibit downtown vitality and park usage by removing opportunities for urban edges and continuous streets. Indeed, the City constructed an expensive (and wonderful) connection to the Westside with the 4th Avenue bridge and other pedestrian friendly facilities across the isthmus including sidewalks, bike lanes, and lighting. These substantial investments will fall short of their intended goals without a continuous street edge across the isthmus and the naturally-occurring pedestrian activity that would come with it. Likewise the use of Heritage Park and Percival Landing will never live up to their full potential without an adjacent urban edge of continuous streets. Safety is an often overlooked issue that further hampers the feasibility of an expanded isthmus park. Safety issues are already major concerns at downtown parks such as Heritage Park and Percival Landing. Keeping these parks vandal free are major challenges for City Police and the State Patrol since there is no nearby activity after dark. In fact, the State officially closes Heritage Park at 11pm because it cannot afford the surveillance that it feels is necessary for an open space of that size. The only realistic way that downtown parks can be safe for all citizens after dark is with adjacent housing and mixed-use activity that will populate the area for 18 to 24 hours a day. This is called community policing (or as Jane Jacobs would say, "eyes on the street"). The City of Olympia is dedicated to community policing, which is a major them in the Comprehensive Plan chapter on public safety. Community policing is only practical and effective for parks when parks are appropriately scaled to the built environment surrounding them. Thus, expanding Heritage Park would further undermine Olympia's community policing goal by removing urban activity near our large downtown parks. It should also be noted that an expanded isthmus park is not called for nor even discussed in any existing City, County, or State plan. The plans that do exist have been created through many years of public input, careful planning, and a 2004 voter-approved funding measure. Supplanting these existing park plans with a new and costly park project on the isthmus would negate the considerable time, money, and energy spent on park planning by city officials and citizens. How is an expanded isthmus park more important than existing and underfunded downtown park priorities such as rebuilding Percival Landing or new walking paths to connect our existing waterfront parks? Moreover, pushing this new park "priority" to the front of the line would also suppress the needs and desires for other parts of the City. Of course there are the obvious financial questions posed by this isthmus park initiative. How much is it really going to cost? Where would the dollars to acquire the isthmus come from? What about funding to maintain and secure the park? How could our severely cash-strapped city afford to lose the current – and potential – tax revenue generated from the isthmus? Is adding another strip of disconnected grass to Heritage Park worth the financial burden in these difficult financial times ? For all of the above reasons, the initiative to create an expanded isthmus is divisive at best, and selfish and irresponsible at worst. Even in the highly unlikely event that a large amount of cash suddenly became available from the City, State, and private donors, creating an expanded isthmus park would fly squarely in the face of many goals, objectives, and dreams that have been carefully articulated in the Comprehensive Plan. As a result, we do not believe that an isthmus park is palatable or feasible, even if the feasibility study being commissioned by the City says we can afford it.
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As the young minister said...
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:56am.Sitting down to supper, looking at it and at his new wife, folding his hands and beginning to say Grace - "Lord, I seem to have blessed a good deal of this material before..."
As far as I can see, this reprises what Olympia 2012 has been saying all along; it won't be any surprise to anybody that I'm not persuaded by it. But, in brief:
Density - Triway's project would put 141 households, somewhat less than 280 people, on two blocks; the company's land is half the original rezone request. Whether or not we manage to fit 500 people onto the isthmus or they have to live somewhere else is pretty much irrelevant to how much room there is for housing downtown. If Peter's right that the "total downtown area" is 630 acres, the full original rezone request involved seven-tenths of one percent of "downtown." (And if worst came to worst, we could expand the current arbitrary definition of "downtown" by adding four blocks on the edge...)
Transportation - The city's own traffic planning calculations say that putting 141 units of multi-family housing downtown instead of in the suburbs would result in a grand total of about 20 fewer trips an hour during peak afternoon traffic.
Edges - If Triway's complex provides an "edge" to the park, it's a edge across a street from the park. On that basis, Bayview, the Oyster House, whatever eventually got built on the parking lots between them, the Waterstreet cafe, etc... would be just as much an "edge" to an expanded park as Triway's complex would be for the current park. (In fact, what I'd like to see is the city buildings in the Traditions strip with their backs opened up into the fountain block, the Image Source building kept and converted into restaurant, etc...
Safety - The empty buildings sitting there have a lot less graffiti than buildings in the heart of downtown; they haven't even had any broken windows. If there is a "safety" issue in the park, I really don't see how having people in condos between three and seven stories up looking out into its dark and shadowy expanses would help, or that adding two thoroughly lit blocks between the busiest streets downtown would add to that problem.
Park Planning - There are lots of places the city can put another baseball field or a dog park; there isn't only one possible parcel for an acquisition like that. There's lots of time for developing other park land that the city already owns; it won't hurt the West Bay waterfront that the city's going to develop as park to sit as it is for a while. There's only one view like this one in the city, and giving it to Triway will mean there's no way to ever get it back.
Feasibility - The initiative's language doesn't say anything about a park's having to be built immediately. It doesn't say that the Council would have to decide to build a park there all at once, or not at all. It only says that the city has to do a feasibility study for one version of a park there right now; it doesn't say anything about whether or not the Council would want to decide to build a park after it completed the feasibility study, or what sort of park they'd have to build there, or whether or not they might decide to work toward it in stages. It just says that they and the citizens have to have some real data to think about.(Of course, if it were legally possible for the voters to make a land use decision by initiative, the language of this one would have been quite different, and I don't think anyone can realistically say that the Council wouldn't have been presented with 4,000 valid signatures fixing the zoning on the isthmus at its current level, or something considerably more sweeping than that. I certainly have no doubt about what the results of a city-wide vote on that issue would look like.)
As far as the language of this initiative goes, they could look at the study's results and say, if they chose to - "It's clearly not feasible to build the park that the initiative envisions all at once, but given the people's manifest desire for such a park, we'll take what steps it is feasible to take at this point toward that long term goal." (Of course, the most obvious feasible steps are to not rezone the area, which doesn't involve any immediate expenses, or to postpone this decision for a year; I suppose the next most feasible step would be to try to raise the money to buy Triway's two parcels and hold them.)
The initiative also doesn't say that the Council would have to decide to build exactly the park the feasibility study envisions if it did decide to work toward a park. It's perfectly possible for them to complete the study, look at it, and say "Unfortunately, the study convinces us that it's not feasible to build a park exactly like the one the initiative asked to have analyzed. However, given the people's desire for a park, we'll do our best to create some version of what they want that is feasible, by modifying this proposal. (For example, they might keep the strip of buildings on the fountain block, and make it possible for people leasing them from the city to open their backs up onto the current fountain park and put cafe tables out there, which I'd like. They might buy Triway's parcels, but keep one of the buildings for a while and use it for the city or for a park restaurant. Etc...)."
Peter and the other five or six people on the Olympia 2012 Steering Committee don't think more park is desirable; they want five and seven stories of luxury condos there instead - and Peter's repeated their reasons for wanting that. They aren't shared by the 4,000 voters who signed the initiative. "Not desireable" or "not palatable" doesn't mean "not feasible."
As always,
Thad
Some Counter-Counter Points...
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 1:23pm.Thad - As always, thanks for your candor. Here is some more:
Density - Triway's project would put 141 households, somewhat less than 280 people, on two blocks; the company's land is half the original rezone request. Whether or not we manage to fit 500 people onto the isthmus or they have to live somewhere else is pretty much irrelevant to how much room there is for housing downtown. If Peter's right that the "total downtown area" is 630 acres, the full original rezone request involved seven-tenths of one percent of "downtown." (And if worst came to worst, we could expand the current arbitrary definition of "downtown" by adding four blocks on the edge...)
We make the point that there is barely enough room downtown to accomplish our goals as it is. It's easy to say, "there's plenty of other good places to put density", but have you taken the time to figure out how to actually accommodate all the growth? We have and it's shockingly tight. At least this is a start!
And let's not pooh-pooh 280 people on two blocks. That represents at least five times the density in each our respective neighborhoods (which are among the densest in OLY).
Transportation - The city's own traffic planning calculations say that putting 141 units of multi-family housing downtown instead of in the suburbs would result in a grand total of about 20 fewer trips an hour during peak afternoon traffic.
Again, 20 fewer is start. Certainly you don't think it is possible to solve all of our transportation objectives in one fell swoop. Your argument here seems akin to"my vote doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things so why bother voting."
Edges - If Triway's complex provides an "edge" to the park, it's a edge across a street from the park. On that basis, Bayview, the Oyster House, whatever eventually got built on the parking lots between them, the Waterstreet cafe, etc... would be just as much an "edge" to an expanded park as Triway's complex would be for the current park.
No, No, No...The Oyster House, Bayview and Waterstreet are not urban edges. These are more appropriately described as suburban edges: low-rise; single-use; non-residential with big surface parking lots. The whole design ethic with smart growth is based on having less of these types of facilities in our urban landscape.
Safety - The empty buildings sitting there have a lot less graffiti than buildings in the heart of downtown; they haven't even had any broken windows. If there is a "safety" issue in the park, I really don't see how having people in condos between three and seven stories up looking out into its dark and shadowy expanses would help, or that adding two thoroughly lit blocks between the busiest streets downtown would add to that problem.
Thad, you lived in Paris, didn't you? Why, then, are you confusing 5-7 story buildings with sky-scrapers? Plus, the idea is to have people living by the parks, going in and out of buildings at all times of the day. It's not about a bunch of old ladies suspiciously watching the time pass from their window stoops...its about 24-7 activity!
Also, saftey is not the issue as much as the perception of safety is. Perhaps there isn't much grafitti, but I don't know too many people excited to go hang out on the isthmus at night. This perception would only be worse if there was a park there.
Park Planning - There are lots of places the city can put another baseball field or a dog park; there isn't only one possible parcel for an acquisition like that. There's lots of time for developing other park land that the city already owns; it won't hurt the West Bay waterfront that the city's going to develop as park to sit as it is for a while. There's only one view like this one in the city, and giving it to Triway will mean there's no way to ever get it back.
Sit as it is for awhile? Our city's most valuable piece of real estate sitting around covered in blight for longer? I think this where our ideologies differ, I am afraid. Same goes for your feasibility argument.
Peter and the other five or six people on the Olympia 2012 Steering Committee don't think more park is desirable; they want five and seven stories of luxury condos there instead.
Come on, now. We have never said anything about luxury condos. If Triway wants to make it affordable housing, we would be more than fine with that. We believe there needs to be a mix of all income levels in downtown. We also respect the right of private sector developers to make that determination for themselves.
We need a Real Park Downtown
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:01am.I haven't taken the time to read this whole statement yet, but thanks for sharing your ideas, Peter. However I disagree with your basic assertion. A park is feasible, because a park is a necessity. The people of Olympia not only want, but need a real functional park, an open space - in the downtown corridor. The Isthmus is the perfect location for just such a space.
You have a park right across
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:04am.Empty?
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:20am.Yeah, Empty
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:27am.I never see anyone on the grass outside of planned events. My wife runs the path every other day weather permitting and agrees it is usually empty. I see most folks near the fountain instead.
Never?
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:51am.yes, and...
Submitted by FRESH on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:54am.Yes, but
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:19pm.False dilema, FRESH
Submitted by Sandy M on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:21pm.I'm talking about parks here
Submitted by FRESH on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:35pm.Blight?!?
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:39pm.blight
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:40pm.What is this blight to which you refer?
Have you been down there lately?
Submitted by FRESH on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:44pm.Why yes, I have been down
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:51pm.Housing - Yes
Submitted by Bert on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 1:43pm.I am surprised at you, FRESH.
It seems like a broken record - to the point where I have to wonder whether you're actually listening.
No one is arguing against increased housing, or a more functional 18-24 hour downtown.
All that I, along with thousands of others are saying is that the Isthmus is not the appropriate, or correct location to build mixed use housing retail super-structures.
Your resistance to this message is reminiscent of some members of the City Council, actually.
And --- that's not even to mention the fact that not everyone shares your concerns about downtown. Some people like downtown the way it is. (These same people are mostly not against increased housing density.)
Whatever problems might exists, gentrification is not the answer.
The eyes on the streets argument is a non-starter.
Submitted by Laurian on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 1:03pm.I live in the Elks building and consider Heritage Park my back yard. I can unequivocally say other than the four rear apartments in my building there is no housing within eyesight of Heritage Park and yet it has not become jungle of anti-social behavior even with the secluded elements along the south edge of the park.
OTOH in Sylvester Park, which is surrounded by housing, the OPD and the State Patrol respond almost daily to staggering drunks and screaming mental cases morning, noon, and night. It seems anti-social behavior in parks is a function of the proximity of people, not the presence of open space.
PS Heritage park closes at 11:00pm, not dusk.
Of course, the most obvious
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 11:02am.Of course, the most obvious feasible steps are to not rezone the area, which doesn't involve any immediate expenses, or to postpone this decision for a year; I suppose the next most feasible step would be to try to raise the money to buy Triway's two parcels and hold them.
Raise money? You assume they are for sale.
Right! They won't be for
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 12:33pm.Upzoned?
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 3:47pm.Nope. Upzoned.
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 5:51pm.Upzoned seems right
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 7:04pm.Doug Mah, Jeff Kingsbury, Rhenda Strub, Craig Ottavelli and Joan Machlis apparently intend to simply ignore the initiative and go ahead and vote to rezone in December, before they've even looked at the results of the park study. The new zoning they're now contemplating would allow Triway to build 171,000 more square feet of high-rise housing with prime views on its property, in addition to 90% of the commercial space it can now, increasing the value of its land very significantly. It would be an "upzone" in the planning/zoning sense, changing the rules to allow "greater intensity of use."
We also think this rezone would violate the Shorelines Management Act, just like the Sato Corporation's attempt to put a seventy foot building on the Bayview property, which was thrown out by the Shorelines Hearings Board a while ago. (That building only covered 17% of the lot, left half the frontage of Bayview's property on 4th Ave open to north/south views, and significantly improved public access to the water by creating a 15,000 square foot public recreation area and boardwalk by the water instead of parking lot.) Nonetheless, the Board said:
"The aesthetic impact of the proposed six story building on the narrow isthmus between downtown and west Olympia simply cannot be avoided by changing the exterior appearance from glass to, say, olive drab. The shoreline view would still be impaired. See Finding of Fact XIII. A more appropriate structure would be lower in height, but that is not what is being proposed. We must therefore conclude that the proposed substantial development is inconsistent with the foregoing portion of RCW 90.58.020. The cumulative effect of allowing this and similar proposals on the isthmus would irreversibly damage the aesthetic views remaining. (3)"
"(3)There appears some need for the city to further refine its land use regulations on the isthmus to address height limitations from an aesthetic perspective."
The city's lawyer says he doesn't think this decision applies because it was about a particular project, not about changing the broader city rules that govern particular project decisions. I'm not a lawyer, but this project was well under the city's height rules at that time, and this passage certainly seems to me to say that the rules allowing that height were themselves in violation of the Shorelines Management Acts' standards, not just that the project didn't meet the rules...
Best,
Thad
Then it sounds like you have
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 7:51pm.Well...
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 8:35pm.I'm not a lawyer, so I guess we'll see, if it comes to that.
Not high rise Thad,
Submitted by FRESH on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 9:40am.not high rise
Submitted by Bert on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 5:14pm.Perhaps not "high-rise" but as medium-rise nonetheless, massively sprawling super-structures.
And hence...
Submitted by Bert on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 5:20pm.... as super-structures, inappropriate for the Isthmus.
First, condominiums are
Submitted by Matthew Green on Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:28pm.First, condominiums are being built in downtown Olympia right now, on the corner of Capitol Way and Union Avenue. This demonstrates that, while the rezone may provide an additional site for housing, the rezone is not necessary in order to get housing built in downtown.
Second, nobody is protesting those condominiums on Capitol and Union, much less collecting petitions against them. This demonstrates that opponents of the rezone (with perhaps extremely rare exceptions) are concerned about the location, and are not opposed to housing elsewhere in downtown.
Those are facts, not opinions.
Now, will a supporter please provide an argument in favor of the rezone that acknowledges those facts?
In others words, given that housing can be built -- and is being built -- elsewhere in downtown, why is rezoning the isthmus so important that it is worth defying the wishes of the most widespread public opposition to a city proposal in memory? (And I was in the middle of the conference center and submarine debates, so I don't say that lightly.)
It's private property. The
Submitted by Mary Baker Eddy on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 7:50am.A public matter
Submitted by rainy gray on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 8:40am.Then it sounds like you have
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 8:42am.Glad to see you catching on.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 9:58am.It is a fact that there are
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 8:46am.The Isthmus Park News – the main piece of literature used by the petitioners – was a brilliant example of scare-tactic propaganda. But it fails to address (a) the massive short-term improbability of converting the isthmus into park (described in original post) and (b) the long-term problems that such a move would create (also described in original post) - not to mention (c) that the yellow cube image (captioned, I believe, as “Triway’s proposal”) is an undeniable and outrageous misrepresentation of the developer’s intentions. If there is such overwhelming support, why did the petitioners feel they needed to veil the real facts so much?
It’s so easy to claim that you are in favor of condos, density, smart growth, etc, etc, etc but just not on the isthmus! But what then? What – within the realm of practicality – should go on the isthmus? And what about the question of how to accommodate 2,500 units of housing in downtown Olympia without using the isthmus to do it? How many in our community have ever played the land use game? How many even know what it is? How many of the 4,000+ petitioners have looked into the question of how to accommodate growth? What about reading reports about this issue from the TRPC? Did the petitioners talk about this at all? Was there even any mention of the plain and simple tradeoff formula that less density in the core equal more sprawling devastation to our natural working landscape?
So, the assertion that there is "widespread public opposition" to the real facts still seems bogus to me.
I'm starting to think we
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 8:55am.GIS for community vision session
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 12:32pm.GIS would be a great tool for exploring various designs for downtown, or maybe Google Earth.
The City/TRPC could save alot of ca$h & score social capital points by having a series of "design-ins" with the public VS hiring consultants
Let folks see what is being proposed and then vote. Game Over =)
Chad
Submitted by einmaleins on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 3:27pm.That's exactly what we're working toward on our Thursday, now Friday meetings.
mathias
einmaleins
I'll look forward to the open house
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 2:04pm.Sounds like a good idea =)
I don't wish to get into
Submitted by Matthew Green on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 12:43pm.I don't wish to get into another debate about what precisely the petition-signers meant by signing it. So, I'll accept your contention that they prefer a park over hideous yellow cubes. My point was that they do not oppose downtown housing. If they did, they would be opposing the housing now being built.
"And what about the question of how to accommodate 2,500 units of housing in downtown Olympia without using the isthmus to do it?"
I suggest that the proponents of the rezone have not actually tried to answer this. Instead, they have merely asserted that it is impossible, and so the isthmus must be rezoned. I disagree. I participated in many policy discussions about how to attract downtown housing, and it is hard but not impossible. The less-noticable policy changes made by the city council over the past ten years are actually starting to work. The proof is the new building on Capitol and Union, and the building application for Columbia between 4th and 5th.
So, let's allow those buildings to go forward and see what happens. Perhaps the condos will sell so fast that other developers will rush to build more (even if the isthmus is not rezoned). Perhaps they won't sell at all, and developers will back away from any plans for housing (even Tri Vo, even if the isthmus is rezoned). And as you said earlier, we're not going to build 2500 units instantly anyway. Could we wait to learn from those projects before we commit to taller buildings on the isthmus?
"What – within the realm of practicality – should go on the isthmus?" Ahh, now this would be a great topic of discussion, but the city council won't have it. After the first downtown heights debate, councilmembers rejected a proposal for community process to answer this question. Now, councilmembers are framing the issue as "for or against the rezone," and are doing everything they can to minimize the park study called for in the petition.
My proposal: Let's table the rezone, and track the results of the current housing being built. Then, in about a year, when some results are known and when emotions have calmed, let's have a discussion that starts with "What should go on the isthmus?" with no prejudgment about either buildings or parks.
This is not a suggestion to "do nothing"or get stuck in process. (I can already hear the complaints about that.) This is a suggestion to intentionally design a process that will actually get an answer that this community can broadly support.
If the rezone doesn't go through...
Submitted by FRESH on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 12:46pm.Not necessarily
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 1:42pm.What are these "more profitable projects"?
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 3:38pm.Check out Triway's website
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 4:08pm.Your point is hugely
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 4:51pm.I didn't mean other projects on the isthmus
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 4:58pm.Real Estate Investments, Liquidity & Reality
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 10:02pm.If the isthmus doesn't get rezoned, Triway is going to have to recover its investment in the land. It can do this in a number of ways, but one thing is for certain: it will choose the option with the highest financial return. Put another way, there is virtually a zero percent chance that Triway will simply aimlessly and indefinitely sit on this land while shifting its "energy and resources" to other projects, as jlw's post above implies.
But let's look at it from jlw's perspective and asusme the office building alternative is an empty threat. What then? Triway would invariably decide to sell the land to another developer with a full tank of time, patience and capital. What would that developer then decide to do with it?
Remember, Tri Vo has already created value on the isthmus by puzzling previously fragmented parcels together into one large buildable "pad". So, while it might not be Triway Enterprises, someone is going to finish what has been started, and eventually, these isthmus properties will have a building on them (save an isthmus park miracle). It might be a mixed use structure that would add 24/7 human activity to the isthmus, or it might be something like the 60,000 sq ft office building with surface level parking like the one Triway already has the city's approval for that would effectively convert our city's most valueable piece of urban real estate into a suburban strip.
So, call it a threat if you like, but I prefer to make decisions that are based in reality.
I'd be willing to live with either...
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 11:12pm.As long as it wasn't over the 35 feet that they had the legal right to build to when they invested in the property. (Or 41 feet, if they managed to build that project...)
Like this...
Best,
Thad
I am surprised to hear
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 6:36am.I am surprised to hear you could live with 35-foot buildings, Thad. I think this would be the ultimate land use mistake for the isthmus. Are you sure that you aren't cutting off your nose to spite your face with this position?
I thought the park was what you wanted for the isthmus. I also thought that you and I agreed that suburban-style, single-use buildings with surface parking are wrong for downtown. See further comments on aesthetics below Just Another Voice's post below.
I didn't say...
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 9:59am.That having it all be 35 foot buildings with parking lots was what I "wanted"...
But I would prefer that to having it covered with more buildings approaching the height of the Capitol Center. One of the striking things for me about the big photos with the Capitol Center tower removed is that almost everybody who looks at them thinks that all the buildings are gone - and they're all still there. People's gaze goes to the view, and they just don't notice the buildings unless you point them out.
As I've said several times, I think some low buildings down there as part of a park would be fine - a café facing onto the fountain, a salmon museum, a ceremonial longhouse... In the long run, I don't think it should just be more grass.
I do agree that there should be (and inevitably will be) less surface parking downtown. But you don't have to generalize and totalize like this about what that should mean I want everywhere downtown under any circumstances. As I said not long ago, this land is seven-tenths of one percent of "downtown"; if the only alternative on that five acres were 100% coverage at 65 and 90 feet, I would rather have the buildings there look like the drawing above than like Larida Passage. That's because I think they wouldn't much affect the view that a lot of people care about, and because on those few blocks of the city I'd rather see the Dome, and the lake and the water over parking lots than not see them at all.
P.S. (I'd also like it if the city did something obvious and relatively undemanding about making the parking lots we have and will have for a long time downtown nicer, like altering the zoning to require their owners to landscape the edges of those lots up to the height of the car tops.) And I think zoning it for 35 foot housing would be an improvement over the current zoning.
"Aimlessly and indefinitely"
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 9:41am.Peter Stroble wrote that "there is virtually a zero percent chance that Triway will simply aimlessly and indefinitely sit on this land." I disagree, although I wouldn't describe such behavior in terms that make it sound like a shamefully irresponsible act. I have been told by several people, one of whom is another developer, that Tri Vo owns a number of currently inactive parcels, some which he may eventually develop, some which he may sell. I don't think we should call this behavior aimless; clearly, his aim is to make money, and sometimes that means waiting for a good opportunity, better market conditions or an accommodating City Council. If the isthmus land does not get rezoned, and Triway has a choice between building a strip mall, or selling or swapping the land, I'm betting on the latter.
In any case, as threats go, the strip mall threat isn't a very effective one, because it would be more acceptable to most of the rezone opponents than those enormous condos.Development happens without construction
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 11:48am.Triway has already developed this isthmus...up to the point where the next logical step in the development process is to either build something on it, or sell it to someone who will build something on it. No sane developer would sit on a valuable piece of real estate with no plan for it. Those inactive parcels that are appearing to sit idle do have development work going on in the background (long-term plans and strategies, if nothing else) that you can't see. But in the case of Triway and its Isthmus, we can see! We know what they want to do AND what their alternatives are.
Let me approach this another way, jlw. What do you think Triway's plans will be if they are not permitted to build Larida Pasage? If you were Triway's CEO, what would you do?
If I were CEO...
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 1:51pm.... right off, I would commission a new market analysis. The housing market environment has changed considerably since the last report, prepared in November 2007 by New Home Trends, and included with Triway's application request. (Even that analysis recommended against beginning with a high end waterfront project -- I doubt if more recent data would serve to brighten the likelihood of the Larida Passage project being a financial success.) My next steps would be affected by what was in that market analysis. But, no question about it, if I were Tri Vo, I would carefully consider the changing market conditions before proceeding with the isthmus project, and I would also expect the City Council to take into account the changes in the housing market before proceeding with the rezone, as well.
Giant green lawns
Submitted by Just another voice on Wed, 11/12/2008 - 11:42pm.But I am Just Another Voice
Thank you...
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 6:29am.You make an excellent point. Aesthetically, I find the upper picture much, much more attractive - and this is an argument that I (nor OLY 2012) has never made before.
I honestly have a hard time relating to the outpouring of emotions over the prospective "loss of the views". What the view in the upper picture shows is a beautiful natural geographic landscape in the background with a vibrant urban edge in the foreground. How inspiring! I fail to see what, of material "view shed" value, is being sacrificed.
On the other hand, the sketch Thad posted offends my aesthetic sensibilities. Tiny little buildings spaced apart with parking lots and dwarfed by the Capitol Center Building is just wrong for an urban core. I would even prefer a park over that.
I really should not have to point this out but...
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 7:55am.It looks like one's winter
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 8:31am.It looks like one's winter (no foliage) and one's summer (plenty of green). I wonder what switching the photos would do to the "aesthetic feasibility" of the project? Perhaps Peter will choose to excoriate the artist and/or distributor(s) of this unscrupulous propaganda with as much vehemence as he denounced the big yellow boxes?
It seems to me, with all the pointing out of hypocrisy, arguing the same points ad nauseam, feigning betrayal at disagreement, accusations of class warfare, etc., that perhaps we are not talking about what we're talking about.
What I mean is that maybe the anger and resentment are not actually (or only) about the Triway project, but merely a new incarnation of a very old battle that (I imagine) was going on long before I noticed it in 2002. It goes something like this:
"Ha-HA! Now the city belongs to the majority! Finally, we will be able to accomplish all those things that the radical vocal minority has prevented us from accomplishing!"
"Not so fast, you heartless sell-outs! The REAL majority does not support your sweeping agenda. Your comeuppance for ignoring us will be a healthy dose of public comment!"
"Y'all are a bunch of starry-eyed communists who don't really understand how things (the economy, city planning, public process, compromise) work. To make an omelet... etc."
"Well, you're a bunch of self-centered, power-hungry politicians out to reward your contributors, and YOU don't really understand how Olympia (compassionate, green, locally-oriented) works!"
I really wish that we could all step outside of our roles in this moldy script and actually talk about what we want to see in Olympia in the future, and figure out some reasonable steps for getting there, and keep a dialogue going before, during and after decisions are made.
I know that this is a charged issue for most of us, and it's hard to let go of "winning", but the fact is that continued polarized "discussion" like this only serves to pull us apart and make it harder to find common ground. I think we all know where we all stand, and we all know most of the arguments on all sides. I am not suggesting that we abandon our positions or opinions or beliefs, but maybe we could step back and adjust the focus a little.
Peter, I know you're passionate about the idea of a charette. Why not take the lead and help us lay the groundwork for something like that, rather than rehashing this issue that no one is budging on?
Thank You!
Submitted by einmaleins on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 9:56am.mathias
einmaleins
Hold On...
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 11:36am.First, I think this discussion is productive, not divisive. Meta, your parahprasing of the Olympia political dichotomy provides us an interesting sketch, but I would like to think that our Olyblog discussions and debates on this matter have been deeper, more detailed, and more meaningful than that.
Second, there is a lot of new material here - both in our orginial post and throughout the discussion thread. Thad, I liked the proverb in your initial comment, but our initial post was not just a reiteration of previous arguments made - there were new arguments presented about park policy specifically.
I view blogging as a form of visioning and bringing the community together, not an empty name-calling session. Meta characterizes this as a pointless or even destructive rehashing of an issue that no one is budging on. But I don't think that is the case at all. It may be the same people debating the points as the issue evolves, but there are more people reading than just those of us who participate. And some of those people are the exact ones we all secretly hope are reading our thoughts. This I know for certain.
Progress can't be made without serious and fair debate (and pointed and fair criticism). I think there is not enough of this discourse in our community, and that which does exist is too often interpreted as pergoritive or devisive, when really it is progressive!
Hmm...
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 3:11pm.Two days ago, wrapping up the post which began this thread, Peter Stroble wrote: "For all of the above reasons, the initiative to create an expanded isthmus is divisive at best, and selfish and irresponsible at worst."
Today, Peter Stroble writes: "Progress can't be made without serious and fair debate (and pointed and fair criticism). I think there is not enough of this discourse in our community, and that which does exist is too often interpreted as pergoritive or devisive, when really it is progressive!"
I like the rhetoric and the sentiments of the second quote better than that of the first... And I do agree with Meta - I don't want to leave posts sitting here as if I agreed with them, but I do think that a lot of this thread is just going over old ground.
Best,
Thad
I apologize for not being
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:35pm.I apologize for not being clear. My little paraphrase was meant to be an interesting sketch. I hoped that we might be able to see ourselves in it, and put our feelings in perspective. When I say that no one's budging, I mean that no one's budging. I have certainly learned things in the course of this debate, and met some new and interesting people. I'm sure everyone has. That does not justify, IMHO, this fer-and-agin business that has everyone acting defensive and competitive.
If we really are visioning, as you say, then why are there still only two basic plans? Why is almost every acknowledgement of our "opponents'" insight or qualification stated as a brief concession preceding a tirade that seeks to discredit the opinion or information that came out of that insight or qualification? Ick. This started out as a great discussion, several months ago, and still sometimes reaches the level of valuable, but for the most part it feels like a dogfight. You know that look that dogs get when they momentarily lose their domestication? It's a kind of psychopathy that has us chewing on each other's necks at this point.
Most of us can't "vision" in the middle of a cagematch. If no one's willing to be wrong, then where does the creativity required for visioning come from?
Also, thanks Goog, for posting that piece about Duluth's charette. I hope Oly can begin a similar process soon.
You betcha
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:54pm.Dogfight? Cagematch?
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 5:15pm.If you think this is forum is a dogfight or a cagematch, then we have very differing ideas of how civic discourse should work. What you call "tirades that seek to discredit the opinions of others" I call the constructive scrutiny of an argument. Of course, the people whose ideas are being criticized probably don't like it (I certainly don't when my ideas are critizied), but those readers out there trying to learn and form an opinion should appreciate it very much. Isn't that what the point of all this blogging is about after all? If not, then why are we wasting our time?
As you know, I am all for a charette done right. But the notion that the participants in a charette would somehow be any less scrutinizing than they are here seems myopic. If I am wrong about that, then how valuable would that charette process be?
I'm not sure how useful these discussions are to "our readers"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 6:06pm.Also...I agree with Thad and Meta
Submitted by Peter Alden Stroble on Fri, 11/14/2008 - 5:24pm.What Meta said.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 10:25am.Friends of the Waterfront made it
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 10:43am.But I am Just Another Voice
"Views from the Captiol Campus" as posted on Friends website
Submitted by Sandy M on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 12:06pm.Here are the three photos and captions posted at the Friends of the Waterfront website page entitled “Views from the Capitol Campus” -- from which JAV copied the two photos she posted:
The City's visualization of the space that the rezone would allow buildings to occupy - March 22 public workshop.
Our vision for this part of the city ten or twenty or thirty years from now - a little more like Paris, a little less like Bellevue.
Triway's visualization - without the rest of the rezone, and using a fish-eye lens to get a whole lot more lake on the left and a whole lot more park below you than you can actually see all at once, making the buildings feel practically beside the point. [Not to mention the seasonal differences in foliage as previously referenced.]
I didn't bother with the
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 12:48pm.As for the 'seasonal change'-- we have 4 seasons in Olympia. Why did the Friends of the Waterfront choose Fall to showcase the beautiful park idea? It's their own fault for not creating the best photo, not TriWay. Lame argument.
But I am Just Another Voice
Pointing out the seasonal differences is not an "argument" ...
Submitted by Sandy M on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 12:53pm.We do not have four seasons
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 1:13pm.Better to compare & contrast isthmus views using the SAME photo
Submitted by Sandy M on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 1:33pm.Here are the images used in the Olympia Isthmus Park News:
Do you want this?
Or do you want this?
Our vision for this part of the city ten or twenty or thirty years from now — a little more like Paris, a little less like Bellevue.
ah, Paris
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 2:54pm.Witty title! ( but that is actually the suburbs...)
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:16pm.It's out on the far horizon in this photo, which is more what I had in mind...)
The city of Paris has height limits. (They're higher than the proposed projects we're discussing, but Paris is an awful lot bigger city than Olympia. It has a lot bigger parks, a lot wider streets, and buildings that can't be more than one foot higher than the Capitol Center tower (including the equipment sheds) anywhere in the city. What feels like "high-rise" is largely a function of how everything else is scaled.
Interestingly, Paris is in the middle of a similar controversy (with a quite similar history behind it...) Also Washington, D.C.
Best,
Thad
The views... are still there!
Submitted by Just another voice on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 3:54pm.But I am Just Another Voice
One word...Duluth
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 5:42pm.I was there a couple months ago and found the town much improved from what it was like 40 years ago, the last time I was there. Yet, much of it seemed wonderfully familiar and little changed. That's what Olympia should aim for and it won't do it buy becoming Kirkland. Read
Update: Fixed the link.