Guns Getting Pulled in Public Places

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Guns Getting Pulled in Public Places

Submitted by Mike on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 6:33am.

Yep, I guess it's a gun thread. So sorry.

It has been reported that an undercover police officer pulled a weapon in downtown area during the Mayday event.

TFI mentioned it this way.

Both The Olympian and Seattle IndyMedia said an undercover officer pulled a firearm on a crowd surrounding him.

I am pretty busy and haven't been able to read all the news, so I know only a little about this.

But, for those of you who think that packing a weapon and being ready and prepared to pull it to defend yourself and others when a shooter suddenly appears in front of you:

how would your self-defense work out in this kind of event?
Would you be able to spot and discriminate an undercover police officer pulling a weapon or would you just lay the undercover person down with a round?

Ground rule: Only discussion of the idea that defensive use of a personal weapon would be good for the public in the manner that has been discussed with regard to the Virginia Tech shootings and others like that. Let's stay focused on that single question please.

Mike's blog
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A good and fair question

Submitted by JT on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 1:35pm.

First with respect to this particular situation, the officer had his badge exposed when he had his gun out. It's common knowledge by police that engaging with a firearm in plain clothes has an inherent danger that goes with it. That is why announcing that you are an officer and having your badge visible is important. Even then you may have a problem through mistaken identity. And just because a guy has a badge and is saying he is cop doesn’t mean he isn’t going to get treated like a suspect by a uniformed officer if the officer doesn’t recognize him.

As for a citizen carrying a gun, obviously a person shouldn’t be arming themselves unless they have a grasp of what is happening around them. Using the May Day example, an armed citizen should have seen two guys, armed, pointing their guns at an angry mob, giving verbal commands and identifying themselves as cops. This probably was not the appropriate time to get involved. Using the Tacoma mall shooting as an example, you would see a guy dressed in civilian clothes, armed with an SKS, non-typical police weapon, and spraying rounds indiscriminately saying nothing, or if he was saying things, likely not “get back, police”. And even if he was yelling something that might be police related, does the behavior, like the open slaughter of innocent people, match what is being said.

If people are walking around with blindfolds and earmuffs on they probably shouldn’t be using their guns to intervene. But if they are responsible, alert, and competent, the risk to them and others is significantly reduced. But like most things, self defense or the defense of others is not risk free. If you make a mistake you may be held criminally and/or civilly liable. So my advice is to choose wisely if you are confronted with a self defense situation, whether with a low level of force all the way up to deadly force.

I have a long narative, yet really a quick overview, on my view for self defense on my blog.

"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."

itchyhitch.blogspot.com

Sounds right. Hope everybody who is packing heat and think they

Submitted by Mike on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 4:29pm.

can be a hero is careful. Depending on where you are standing, and how much of the sequence you actually hear or see, a relatively vigilant person might or might not get all the cues. It was a dangerous situation. I am glad that bullets did not start flying. Undercover must be the absolute pits at that particular moment.

Wow!

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 12:49pm.

I am commenting here only to acknowledge the extraordinary will power of S6. He said he was going to lay off posting, and by God he really meant it. If this didn't suck him in, nothing will...except maybe a post about how Buccanneers are the best sailboats they is. But I won't do that to him. Hat tip.

What's wrong with a Buccaneer????

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 5:03pm.

I'll pay any price for corn on the cob out of season.

Screw you Jim! :-)

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 6:03pm.

I couldn't hold back on this one, it's been bugging me for days.

What I care to address is the matter of an armed citizen drawing in public. Cops with visible badges are identifiable as cops. Joe Average armed citizen doesn't have the advantage of a badge. Yes there are some hideously tacky "Concealed Carry Permit Badges" out there, but I think only posers and wannabe cops buy and use those.

So let's say I've been forced to draw my gun on someone in a public place. Now the first thing I need to do is maintain control of the situation. Typically this is down with verbal commands. The first thing I would do is shout "Stop!" or "Freeze" followed by a general shout for assitance "Someone call 911!" or whatnot. At this point I have established a certain amount of authority over the criminal, and indicated to the public at large that I desire the presence of law enforcement. Hopefully the bad guy is behaving and there is no need for further use of my weapon. I would keep the weapon aimed at the criminal at all times.

If possible I would call 911 myself on my cell phone, and keep that in my left hand. Speaking with the dispatcher I would stress that I am a lawfully armed citizen, and ask for any instructions.

I would continue providing verbal cues to any witnesses or the criminal as needed to maintain my upper hand.

When the cops arrived I would holster my weapon or lay it on the ground, such as they command, keeping my finger well clear of the trigger guard and my other hand very visible.

Once the officers establish control of the scene I can give my statement.

This is in an ideal world, with witnesses.

I think it is important to make it aware to any persons who may be a witness to such an event that (1) I am a lawfully armed citizen and (2) I am waiting for police, and ask someone to call police if they haven't been summoned.

Massad Ayoob suggested in his book "In the Graveste Extreme" shouting "Stop!" "Police!" which while the criminal may take that as an indicator you are a cop, you can state you ordered the criminal to stop, and then called "Police" as a request for help. I'm a bit unsure on this one, which is why I don't adhere to it.

In a situation like May Day, I would be concealing my weapon, and I would only be drawing it for personal protection, or protection of an attacked third party.

It's a difficult thing to deal with drawing a weapon in public, and I hope never to face that situation. I think society is indoctrinated enough to the point where if they see someone drawing a weapon and shouting commands, they will take that person as an authority figure, or someone with training, and probably a good guy.

Ugh. Now I've gone and broken my vow of silence. Screw it. I'm back. I was melancholy, tired and somewhat depressed, plus buzzed on caffiene and coming down from it when I swore off posting for a while.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

I have two questions.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 7:05pm.

In your scenario let's say the person you are pointing your weapon at decides to get out of there, and turns away and runs from you. What do you do?

"I think society is indoctrinated enough to the point where if they see someone drawing a weapon and shouting commands, they will take that person as an authority figure, or someone with training, and probably a good guy."

Is that why you carry a gun?

Ugh

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 7:18pm.

I generally wouldn't shoot at a fleeing felon, unless their actions had shown themselves to be such a danger to the public around them (such as shooting someone, violent attack, etc...) AND I felt comfortable making the shot. It is legal to shoot a fleeing felon under some circumstances.

I've already made it very plain why I carry a gun. Authority isn't it. I simply pointed out that under the difficult circumstances of drawing on a criminal in public, an armed person who can take control of a situation is likely to get out of it. You notice the second part of my statement where I said "OR someone with training, and probably a good guy." I am not an authority figure, nor do I wish to be taken as one. I do wish to be taken as someone with training and knowledge should I ever be forced into the situation of drawing on someone.

Who do you think the public would take more seriously if someone witnessed an armed citizen drawing on somone... a person who stuttered and seemed unsure of themself, or someone who was able to maintain control of themselves and the situation?

I wish to maintain control of the situation, and be viewed by any witnesses as someone who knows what they are doing and is trained. Trained people in dangerous situations give confidence, and make a scene safer. I wish to present myself as a trained and competent indvidual.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

I wasn't trying to rile you.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 7:33pm.

Those were serious questions, thank you for answering.

The problem that I see with this situation

Submitted by Mike on Sun, 05/11/2008 - 6:32am.

is that undercover cops who pull their weapons in a public place will not be easily identifiable as police. Even if they flip out a badge from a pocket, that badge will only be visible from certain angles. A person at a certain distance, from any angle where the badge is not visible, could turn a corner, come out of business door and what they would see is a crowd of people in an excited state. They might see people throwing rocks, they might see glass flying, then they might also suddenly spot a person brandishing a weapon. Distance, noise, etc might or might not allow the person with weapon to be identified as law officer.

I think it was a really dangerous situation.

I can't bring myself to open up on this thread

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:19pm.

I've read it several times now, and JT does a good job of representing, but I've wanted to give the lowly private citizen view....but I just don't feel like being picked apart and having to defend myself to all of the blog.

First I will say I'm breaking my rule of no posting under the

Submitted by JT on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 7:17pm.

the influence, even one drink. But hear goes.

S6's logic is a good way to handle things. I think S6 takes on more risk than he needs too, but likely does so because he doesn't want to shoot someone unless completely necessary, i.e removing as much doubt as possible. Good for him, but he does so at additional peril. But now that I know S6 much more than I did 6 months ago, I would expect this out of a man of character that he is.

Cops have more obligation to identify and direct with verbal commands when dealing with armed individuals. Cops don't have to ALWAYS announce, etc. but do so much more than the average joe. Take the Tacoma shooting and the citizen that was shot by the suspect because he hesitated. In that situation, the citizen, IMO, should have just shot the guy in the back (or more precisely in the back of the head), no announcement, nothing. Because he did announce and even waited to see if the guy would drop the gun, he got shot. I give the citizen that got shot accolades for having the courage to engage the a$$hole with the gun, but he made an error and unfortuately has to live his life out paralyzed.

I will close with this. MOST of the people that have issue with guns being carried by legal citizens in defense of themselves or others are the same people that will not help someone in need in absence of a gun.

"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."

itchyhitch.blogspot.com

Cop perspective

Submitted by Norm on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 8:21pm.

Tacoma shooting, guy is firing his SKS into the crowd, you are behind him: Do you announce? Or just fire? Is there a protocol? I'm in agreement with you, there are times when announcing may not be a good idea. Have to take every advantage you can when a single mistake will put you in the grave.

I was thinking of the rock throwing incidents

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 11:10pm.

While I was writing, and described the sort of situation I would feel most comfortable with. Tacoma mall style? I would open up and stop the guy at all costs. I feel sorry for the guy who tried to negoiate with the shooter. I didn't put in my usual disclaimer, that "This is how I would prefer to do things, but if I have no choice, there is a reason I carry a reload"

This is why I open carry most of the time. It sends a signal to the bad guys to go somewhere else. The deterent of my gun visible does more for me, than it hidden under my coat where nobody can see it until I am forced to reveal it.

Drawing on someone, and maybe shooting them is something I don't think any of us here who regularly pack (what, all 3? 4?) ever want to do.

Trying to get the reasonings and mindset of the armed citizen through to other people is the hard part.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

This cop's perspective on that specific event,

Submitted by JT on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 3:29am.

no announcement, just end it.

Citzens have less legal obligation to announce than cops was my point. That may not have shined through the ethanol fog...:)

"Forgiving or punishing the terrorists is left to God. But, fixing their appointment with God is our responsibility."

itchyhitch.blogspot.com

I thought that's what you were going for

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 9:26am.

and pretty much my line of thinking as well. Thanks for sharing.

jt wrote: no announcement, just end it.

Submitted by Mike on Sun, 05/11/2008 - 6:25am.

with regard to the SKS armed guy in Tacoma Mall.

That sounds right to me.

Question People

Submitted by Laurian on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 6:02am.

Would any of you out there have drawn a firearm someone throwing rocks through windows at the May Day melee?

Speaking only for me:

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 9:23am.

Absolutely not. Given my history with observing marches/demonstrations I wouldn't have a firearm with me, even if I did it's only property damage and seriously injuring someone to prevent that is not acceptable. Had I been there, I "probably" would have tried my best to prevent the rock throwing just in case someone might get hurt, and because property damage is not ok in my opinion. I'm not above a loud command and shaking finger, or if need be a clothesline and form tackle. no weapons though.

Nope

Submitted by security_six on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 6:30pm.

Minor property damage isn't worth it. Arson, maybe if that is what it takes to prevent the fire. If the fire is already going, nope.

I would be prone to conceal a weapon on my person if I was forced to be in the area of a demonstration, and would do everything I could to avoid the situation.

"Oligarchs and tyrants mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
-Aristotle

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